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Author Topic: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council  (Read 339 times)

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Offline IndultCat

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The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
« on: Today at 01:15:52 PM »
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  • I truly believe that the last "great" and "necessary" Ecuмenical Council of The Church was the 19th Council: The Council of Trent (1545-1563). I feel that the last two Ecuмenical councils (Vatican I and Vatican II) were not only unnecessary but also disastrous for The Church as a whole.

    I also believe that the entire "Liturgical Movement," beginning in the early 1800s, was unnecessary and a disaster from the word "go."

    Had The Church steadfastly adhered to the Canons and Decrees of The Council of Trent without deviating from them in any way, shape or form (and refrained from creating any new canons and decrees during any subsequent Ecuмenical Councils), then none of us would be experiencing this current agonizing crisis in the Church.

    Tridentine Catholicism (without the Liturgical Movement and both Vatican councils) is sufficient and always will be.

    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 01:24:08 PM »
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  • I truly believe that the last "great" and "necessary" Ecuмenical Council of The Church was the 19th Council: The Council of Trent (1545-1563). I feel that the last two Ecuмenical councils (Vatican I and Vatican II) were not only unnecessary but also disastrous for The Church as a whole.

    I also believe that the entire "Liturgical Movement," beginning in the early 1800s, was unnecessary and a disaster from the word "go."

    Had The Church steadfastly adhered to the Canons and Decrees of The Council of Trent without deviating from them in any way, shape or form (and refrained from creating any new canons and decrees during any subsequent Ecuмenical Councils), then none of us would be experiencing this current agonizing crisis in the Church.

    Tridentine Catholicism (without the Liturgical Movement and both Vatican councils) is sufficient and always will be.
    Vatican I was necessary, not because the Council of Trent was insufficient, but because new errors arose after Trent that Trent did not address. The Church faced rationalism, liberalism, and direct attacks on the papacy, requiring a precise and dogmatic definition of papal primacy and papal infallibility.

    This in no way legitimizes Vatican II, since Vatican II openly contradicted both Trent and Vatican I in matters of doctrine, authority, and the very nature of the Church.


    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 01:46:46 PM »
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  • Vatican I was necessary, not because the Council of Trent was insufficient, but because new errors arose after Trent that Trent did not address. The Church faced rationalism, liberalism, and direct attacks on the papacy, requiring a precise and dogmatic definition of papal primacy and papal infallibility.

    This in no way legitimizes Vatican II, since Vatican II openly contradicted both Trent and Vatican I in matters of doctrine, authority, and the very nature of the Church.
    I respectfully disagree. Pope Pius IX did not continue the Vatican I Council when it ended in 1870 even though he could have (the Council was cut short due to war) since his pontificate lasted for several years later. Pope Leo XIII could have continued and or concluded the Vatican I Council...but he didn't and neither did Popes Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI or Pius XII.

    Perhaps the "biggest error" to arise after Trent was "Marxism/Communism" and Vatican I did not condemn it. Neither did Vatican II, of course, but to call the 20th Ecuмenical Council of the Church in 1869, then close it a year later due to war and then NOT re-open it in order to officially condemn the "biggest error" of "Marxism/Communism", was, in hindsight, a terrible error.

    Without Vatican I, John XXIII most likely would never have called Vatican II in 1959 because a major reason he gave for calling it was "to FINISH what Vatican I started." Whether one believes that or not is irrelevant. The fact is, in hindsight, to call an Ecuмenical Council and not re-open it in order to condemn the "biggest error" post -Trent (and then leave it to a "pope" to decide to allegedly "continue" the council 89 years later) was MUCH WORSE than to have called no Ecuмenical Council at all.

    By failing to condem the "biggest error" post-Trent at Vatican I and thereby giving an excuse to someone like John XXIII to "continue" or "finish" the work done by Vatican I at Vatican II, Vatican I was a colossal failure.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 02:38:47 PM »
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  • Interesting. I never thought of it that way for a few reasons....

    Although V1 was permanently cut short, it still gave us the dogma of Papal Infallibility. No one knows what else it would have given us if it was not cut short or was continued.

    V2 came at a time in history when drugs were becoming more and more popular, rock and roll more vulgar, hippies more ugly, there was the flower power and free love, Vietnam war, JFK αssαssιnαtҽd, MLK / Civil rights, riots, and a multitude of other major social scandals and distractions were all going on at roughly the same time. Enter V2, they added their chaos into the mix at the right time - it all fit. I believe too many of the faithful were growing more and more lax in their faith, so God gave them what they wanted, so to speak. 

    The reason I say they got what they wanted is because the very few faithful who would not go along with the new religion were very often persecuted by those who went along with the new religion and  for remaining steadfast and stubbornly clinging to the only faith they ever knew, refusing to go along with the crowd. 

    So IMO, I believe the people back then who went along hold a big chunk of the responsibility for what V2 did - and that V2 or something like V2 was bound to happen because of the laxity, or perhaps unfaithfulness, (or sins?) of the Catholic people.        
      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 03:25:23 PM »
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  • I truly believe that the last "great" and "necessary" Ecuмenical Council of The Church was the 19th Council: The Council of Trent (1545-1563). I feel that the last two Ecuмenical councils (Vatican I and Vatican II) were not only unnecessary but also disastrous for The Church as a whole.

    I also believe that the entire "Liturgical Movement," beginning in the early 1800s, was unnecessary and a disaster from the word "go."

    Had The Church steadfastly adhered to the Canons and Decrees of The Council of Trent without deviating from them in any way, shape or form (and refrained from creating any new canons and decrees during any subsequent Ecuмenical Councils), then none of us would be experiencing this current agonizing crisis in the Church.

    Tridentine Catholicism (without the Liturgical Movement and both Vatican councils) is sufficient and always will be.

    Ridiculous.

    1) Vatican I was necessary ...

    2) Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council, so don't equate the two

    Are you the heretic who thinks like half of the last dozen popes prior to Roncalli were heretical Anti-Popes?

    This contempt for an Ecuмenical Council inspired by the Holy Ghost (Vatican I) ... is yet another pernicious fruit of the R&R mindset.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 03:26:10 PM »
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  • Interesting. I never thought of it that way for a few reasons....

    Of course you have.  You despise Vatican I like all the other Old Catholics of your ilk.

    Of course, you keep trying to claim that Vatican I condemns sedevacantism, so for you that would be essential.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 03:31:36 PM »
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  • Of course you have.  You despise Vatican I like all the other Old Catholics of your ilk.

    Of course, you keep trying to claim that Vatican I condemns sedevacantism, so for you that would be essential.
     The dogma of papal infallibility was defined at Vatican 1, you hating the dogma is your problem.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 04:01:42 PM »
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  • Ridiculous.

    1) Vatican I was necessary ...

    2) Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council, so don't equate the two

    Are you the heretic who thinks like half of the last dozen popes prior to Roncalli were heretical Anti-Popes?

    This contempt for an Ecuмenical Council inspired by the Holy Ghost (Vatican I) ... is yet another pernicious fruit of the R&R mindset.
    I respectfully disagree. While the Old Catholics did not agree with Papal Infallibility (like Bishop Strossmayer), that is not the issue here. To declare Papal Infallibility without condemning the most pernicious error post-Trent is worse than not declaring anything at all.

    And can anyone truly give a good reason why all of the popes from Pius IX through Pius XII did not "finish" the Vatican I Council to condemn the most pernicious error post-Trent? Failure to do so resulted in "false pope" John XXIII using the failure to "finish" Vatican I for over 80 years as an excuse to call a "Second Vatican Council."

    While Vatican II is, without a doubt, a heretical council, Vatican I (along with the entire poisonous "Liturgical Movement" that came before and after it) contributed to Vatican II.

    I will NOT say that any of the popes from Pius IX through Pius XII were "heretical anti-popes." I will ALWAYS give them the benefit of the doubt.

    However, due to their lack of doing what should have been done (i.e. continuing and concluding Vatican I after the war in order to condemn the biggest pernicious error post-Trent and finally putting an end to the Liturgical Movement begun in the early 1800s), they encouraged the "unnecessary changes" to keep coming as fast as a speeding locomotive until we arrived at the Vatican II apostasy.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 04:22:33 PM »
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  • A while back Bergoglio mentioned calling another counsel so I wonder if that is still being planned.
    If we think things have been bad for the last 200 years....hold your hats for what will come with Vatican III.
    Anyone read AA-1025 lately?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Last Necessary Ecuмenical Council
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 04:27:17 PM »
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  • A while back Bergoglio mentioned calling another counsel so I wonder if that is still being planned.
    If we think things have been bad for the last 200 years....hold your hats for what will come with Vatican III.
    Anyone read AA-1025 lately?
    Well, there are still a lot of NO churches that they want to close, what else would they call another "council" for?  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse