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Author Topic: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest  (Read 7507 times)

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Offline clarkaim

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Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2019, 02:40:26 PM »
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  • I personally find it a lot easier to believe a true Pope could promulgate a bad or harmful rite than a truly invalid one.  Though saying its bad and harfmul while also valid has gradations.  Like what do we mean by harmful exactly?  if its valid it has the possiblity of someone receiving true grace through it, which is a separate question from whether its harmful *compared* to the alternative of attending a Tridentine or Eastern liturgy, which is a separate question from whether the mass itself is pleasing to God.  
    but a true Pope can do NEITHER and that is DOGMA, so you would be incorrect.  

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #46 on: October 23, 2019, 10:41:38 PM »
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  • You have to ask yourself WHY do you want to go to ICKSP mass?  one of your earlier points had much to do with what I would call "sentiments" , adjectives like "beautiful" or MORE PURE.  All of this can be answered by asking t question "Is the Novus Ordo, in all it's accouterments CATHOLIC or NOT.   IT IS REALLY AS SIMPLE AS THAT.  If it is, you are obligated to attend your local parish and support all "Community" stuff you can.  You really aren't justified in going any where else are you?  if this was 1937 an you asked your Pastor, what would he say?  I think you know. Oh but bergoglio says it's now ok to go to a latin mass?  Read what they say!!k  ONLY for such sentimental attachments as you've described and you are not ALLOWED to question the doctrinal purity of the VII church, something all of us "trads" DO.  We are ultimately all sede, whether via honestly or practicaly, fusing what ever mental gymnastics we can muster to leave us a fallback.  Be advised it is DOGMA that the church cannot feed poison to it's children.  So either the N.O. is Catholic 100% or it is NOT 100%.  A thing cannot be and not be at the same time, Hamlet not withstanding.  
    ICKSP is in regular communion so even given the assumptions you make she could attend mass there.

    Though I don't agree with the argument anyways.


    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #47 on: October 26, 2019, 09:02:20 PM »
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  • You have to ask yourself WHY do you want to go to ICKSP mass?  one of your earlier points had much to do with what I would call "sentiments" , adjectives like "beautiful" or MORE PURE.  All of this can be answered by asking t question "Is the Novus Ordo, in all it's accouterments CATHOLIC or NOT.   IT IS REALLY AS SIMPLE AS THAT.  If it is, you are obligated to attend your local parish and support all "Community" stuff you can.  You really aren't justified in going any where else are you?  if this was 1937 an you asked your Pastor, what would he say?  I think you know. Oh but bergoglio says it's now ok to go to a latin mass?  Read what they say!!k  ONLY for such sentimental attachments as you've described and you are not ALLOWED to question the doctrinal purity of the VII church, something all of us "trads" DO.  We are ultimately all sede, whether via honestly or practically, fusing what ever mental gymnastics we can muster to leave us a fallback.  Be advised it is DOGMA that the church cannot feed poison to it's children.  So either the N.O. is Catholic 100% or it is NOT 100%.  A thing cannot be and not be at the same time, Hamlet not withstanding.  
    Interesting argument, Clarkaim.  To answer your question, yes, I do think the Novus Ordo Masses are Catholic. I think they are generally (or all) illicit, but valid. I attended a beautiful, holy Novus Ordo Mass in my old diocese/state.  By beautiful and holy I mean reverent and worshipful. I don't know of one here. I asked a devout Catholic (online) who lives in my state in a neighboring town, who runs a website on Catholic mystics, about whether there was a reverent, devout Catholic Mass to be found anywhere in this archdiocese, or a neighboring one, and he said he didn't know of one (I am thinking he has a busy family life and church-shopping isn't on the agenda). He called the Masses in our diocese "Pretty meat and potatoes". Yes. No outright modern inventions which was par for the course in my old diocese. But I get distracted by perceiving lack of holiness in the priests. I see the good in them too usually. But I also see the lack of reverence and lack of moral teaching in the homilies and it distracts and upsets me. So I began to take to the Latin Mass that I don't understand much of (my husband understands it all). It helps me think on holy things instead of what is wrong. It helps me take Holy Communion more worthily, with more awareness. Now I am looking forward to a Sunday morning Mass finally. And the option of Daily Mass those rare times I can go to it.
    I disagree that in these times, and with all I know of what is wrong with the Novus Ordo, that I am obliged to go to it and support all the "community stuff". I remember being told that in my old diocese (attend your local parish and support it) but I never felt that was right. Because I was seeking God's will in the matter, i believe He would have put it on my heart if that was His will, and He did not. I believe that because when you truly seek God will He reveals it, and I wanted to know His will on that. So, not agreeing with you on that. I do think I am obliged to serve my "neighbors" and "community", and I can do that best by being the best Catholic I can. And the Latin Mass helps me with that more than the local Novus Ordo. 
    Yes, its really, really bad what is going on in the worldwide Catholic Church. l avoided the Amazon news because I knew how bad it would be, and I don't have time or energy to be upset about anything. But I watched a 20 min. Church Militant video on it yesterday and I am encouraged to know that many folk are unimpressed (or outraged) with the Amazon agenda. That is encouraging. 
    Our Church in these days is crippled and outwardly ugly. One has to have faith to see beyond horrendous appearances. When Jesus was carrying His cross, He also looked crippled and outwardly ugly BTW. I have heard it explained that the Church is going through a passion, and I agree with that assessment. It probably will end in a kind of death before a rebirth. And like the Passion, it will probably get worse before the death.  It's definitely getting worse.  And I am wondering after the CM video if our Pope is sort of a hapless misled pawn. We certainly need to pray for his conversion.
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #48 on: October 27, 2019, 11:41:13 AM »
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  • Interesting argument, Clarkaim.  To answer your question, yes, I do think the Novus Ordo Masses are Catholic....No outright modern inventions which was par for the course in my old diocese.
    In case, for any reason, you ever decide to return to a NO service as many often do, consider that the front-and-center table in the NO sanctuary is the NO victory flag, an outright modern invention prominently on display and firmly planted where it cannot be missed by anyone that enters the building. The table is their flag, their proclamation of victory over another formerly Catholic building.

    When it comes to going to a NO service for any reason, the procedure Catholics adhere to is: "Walk in, see flag, turn around and leave". If all Catholics ("the many") would have practiced this procedure in the late 60s instead of just "the few" who did (and still do), the enemy's diabolical plan would have been defeated before it ever got off the ground. You want to be one of "the few", not one of "the many".         
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #49 on: October 27, 2019, 11:47:07 AM »
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  • But I also see the lack of reverence and lack of moral teaching in the homilies and it distracts and upsets me.
    There is worse than lack of reverence.

    In my Parish, our local priest openly recommended to vote against certain parties, in the future (now past) 2019 May general elections, citing the motive that one political leader of the coalition was: "... too open in professing his faith (*) and admitting to praying the rosary, which he carried in Parliament, as a help and guide so that his decisions and his proposed laws would bow to the kingship of Christ, imploring Our Lady too often in public, ending phrases with "our good God willing", etc., which is all very oppressive and counterproductive for dialogue with our brothers of different ideas".

    (*) the irony is that the priest is, technically, correct. This leader is a frevent, pure Catholic which, one may argue, the priest saying N.O. Mass is not.
    When you get to this level of preaching, it is no longer a matter of the NO Mass being valid or invalid but preaching against the real Church's interests.

    The worse part of it all being that our Diocesis' Archibishop not only is well aware of these sermons, but he even lauds them...

    I try to discern between formal and substantial errors.

    My local priest is in both formal and substantial error. He celebrates N.O. Mass with the intent of modifying our traditional doctrine and Faith.

    Other local priests, as yours seems to be, celebrates N.O. Mass without the intent of subverting our Faith and, probably, with good intentions, convinced (as I was too) that N.O. is perfectly legitimate and valid simply because your priest (as I too) is merely intellectually indolent and revers Rome's given authority which he has no reason to question (until he will open his eyes).

    Having said that, priest carry an aggravating responsibility as they studied in seminar and, should, in theory, be able to discern errors. One might question what he was taught in seminar but, that is another topic alltogether.


    P.S.:
    OT
    : the leader in question is Matteo Salvini who leads Italy's Lega Party that has risen in the past tthree years from 4% before 2016, to 17% in 2016 elections and now polls between 34% and 38%. He is conservative and liberal (in the real economic interpretation of economic liberalism) and has become the first party in Italy. Our second party polls at 21%. He openly agrees that state should be lay as long as our laws reflect and are not inconflict with Catholic values. He recognizes the kinship of Our Lord and is not afraid to say so publicly. He insists on closing mosques and promoting catholic schools. He recognizes that other denominations are welcome "guests" in Italy if they pay taxes and respect our laws but minorities must accept that their freedom and the protection of their values and identities must end where the freedom and protection of the values and identity of the majority begins.
    Tommaso
    + IHSV


    Offline Meg

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #50 on: October 27, 2019, 11:51:35 AM »
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  • We are ultimately all sede, whether via honestly or practicaly, fusing what ever mental gymnastics we can muster to leave us a fallback.  Be advised it is DOGMA that the church cannot feed poison to it's children.  So either the N.O. is Catholic 100% or it is NOT 100%.  A thing cannot be and not be at the same time, Hamlet not withstanding.  

    You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But we are NOT ultimately all sedes, as you say above.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #51 on: October 27, 2019, 12:00:37 PM »
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  • You want to be one of "the few", not one of "the many".        
    I want to be one of the righteous, not the few or the many.
    The OP exposes the challenges of the poster, challenges that i can recognize. It is difficult to abandon Rome outright because some of us still have nightmares and acute moral doubts as to what is the right thing to do as a Catholic re the Mass per se.

    This community's members have evidently matured their internal struggles and reached a personal comfort zone with their individual morality regarding V2 and its consequences.
    Some of us have just started to awake and open our eyes. One must appreciate (a) the pain and anguish of renouncing what some of us love as own Mother because we realize that she may not be such and (b) the agonizing doubts of what is actually the righteous thing to do regariding the liturgy itself.
    Tommaso
    + IHSV

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #52 on: October 27, 2019, 12:08:15 PM »
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  • Not necessarily invalid, but positively doubtful.  Now, we are required to avoid doubtful Sacraments except in danger of death ... so in practice it reduces to the same thing, except for a danger of death scenario.  One cannot receive certainly invalid Sacraments even in danger of death, but one can receive doubtfully-valid ones in that situation, if no other options can be had.
    So are we to understand by this, that if one is in danger of death and the only sacraments that can be had are doubtfully valid, we may receive them?
    And would this mean, for instance, that if I am in danger of death, and the only priest available is a "continuing Anglican" or vagus Orthodox priest, who insists that his orders and apostolic lines of succession are valid in the eyes of Rome, I may receive the sacraments?  What if he has celebrated a Mass and offers you viaticuм consecrated in that Mass?  It may be valid, it probably is valid, but you do not know that for a fact.  Do you risk committing idolatry and sacrilege by worshiping a Eucharist that could possibly be nothing more than bread (because invalid)?

    Let me be clear that I do not view the sacraments of the ICKSP as invalid or doubtfully valid.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #53 on: October 27, 2019, 12:15:17 PM »
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  • Yes, Eliza, the parishes of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest is a great place to assist at Holy Mass. Many of their Priests, I believe, were ordained by Cardinal Burke. Some of the founders of that Fraternity were close to conservative Tradition-leaning Cardinal Siri. You'll certainly encounter solid doctrine, traditional praxis, and above all, give glory to God by assisting at the Traditional Mass, and obtain the graces you need for the sanctification of your soul and those of your family. God bless.

    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #54 on: October 27, 2019, 06:41:27 PM »
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  • Today we had our first ICKSP Mass at the the new beautiful church. Two things I particularly noticed were: As I walked in, the most beautiful stations of the cross I ever saw, and when we got to the front, "No table!". I made me unexpectedly SO HAPPY to see no table.  I stared for a long time, and wondered why this made me so happy.  I think it was the unobstructed view towards the Tabernacle. 

    Everything about it was more beautiful than I expected. I feel blessed. I am so happy about this being our new parish.
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #55 on: October 27, 2019, 06:52:48 PM »
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  • Yes, Eliza, the parishes of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest is a great place to assist at Holy Mass. Many of their Priests, I believe, were ordained by Cardinal Burke. Some of the founders of that Fraternity were close to conservative Tradition-leaning Cardinal Siri. You'll certainly encounter solid doctrine, traditional praxis, and above all, give glory to God by assisting at the Traditional Mass, and obtain the graces you need for the sanctification of your soul and those of your family. God bless.
    Thanks for encouraging thoughts, XavierSem. I think we are so blessed to have this. 
    And the peace of God, which surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #56 on: October 28, 2019, 02:05:17 AM »
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  • Some words of wisdom, Eliza, from Bishop Williamson. This is the common sense teaching one always heard, until recently, from the SSPX:

    Eleison Comments 263 (28 July 2012): Conciliar Infection

    May Catholics who wish to keep the Faith attend a Tridentine Mass celebrated by a priest who is part of the Conciliar Church, for instance by his belonging to the Institute of Christ the King or to the Fraternity of St Peter? The answer has to be that, as a rule, a Catholic may not attend such a Mass, even if it is a Tridentine Mass, and even if it is worthily celebrated. What can be the justification for such a seemingly strict rule?

    The basic reason is that the Catholic Faith is more important than the Mass. For if through no fault of my own even for a long time I cannot attend Mass but I keep the Faith, then I can still save my soul, whereas if I lose the Faith but for whatever reason go on attending Mass, I cannot save my soul (“Without faith it is impossible to please God” – Heb. XI, 6). Thus I attend Mass in order to live my Faith, and, belief going with worship, I attend the true Mass in order to keep the true Faith. I do not keep the Faith in order to attend Mass.

    It follows that if the celebration of a Tridentine Mass is surrounded by circuмstances that threaten to undermine my faith, then depending on the gravity of the threat, I may not attend such a Mass. That is why Masses celebrated by schismatic Orthodox priests may be valid, but the Church in her right mind used to forbid Catholics to attend on pain of grave sin, because, belief and worship going together, the non-Catholic worship threatened the Catholics’ faith. Now Orthodoxy has in the course of centuries caused huge harm to the Catholic Church, but can anything compare with the devastation wrought upon that Church within mere tens of years by Conciliarism? If then Catholics were forbidden to attend Mass in Orthodox circuмstances, would not the same Church in her right mind forbid to attend a Tridentine Mass celebrated in Conciliar circuмstances?

    Then what is meant by Conciliar circuмstances? The answer must be, any circuмstances which, over a shorter or longer period of time, are going to make me think that the Second Vatican Council was not an utter disaster for the Church. Such a circuмstance might be a charming and believing priest who has no problem with celebrating either the new or the old Mass, and who preaches and acts as though the Council presents no serious problem. Conciliarism is so dangerous because it can so be made to seem Catholic that I can lose the Faith without – or almost without – realizing it.

    Of course common sense will take into account a variety of special circuмstances. For instance a good priest trapped for now within the Conciliar church may need encouragement to start on his way out of it by my attending his first celebrations of the true Mass. But the general rule must remain that I can have nothing to do with even the true Mass being celebrated in a Conciliar context. For confirmation, notice how Rome began by allowing the Institute of the Good Shepherd to celebrate exclusively the true Mass, because Rome knew that once the Institute had swallowed the official hook, eventually Rome could be sure of pulling the Institute into their Conciliar net. Sure enough. It took only five years.

    That is the danger of any practical agreement without a doctrinal agreement between Rome and the Society of St Pius X. So long as Rome believes in its Conciliar doctrine, it is bound to use any such agreement to pull the SSPX in the direction of the Council, and the context of every SSPX Mass would become Conciliar, if not rapidly, at least in the long run. Forewarned is forearmed.

    Kyrie eleison.

    Bishop Richard Williamson


    In a book published by the Fathers of Holy Cross Seminary (The SSPX Australian Seminary) - Most Asked Questions About The SSPX (beware of modern sanitized version) - We read in response to the question of what we are to think of the FSSP (which by extension we could apply to the ICKSP):

    "This being so, attending their Mass is:

     - accepting the compromise on which they are based,
     - accepting the direction taken by the Conciliar Church
       and the consequent destruction of the Catholic Faith and practices, and
     - accepting, in particular, the lawfulness and doctrinal soundness
        of the Novus Ordo Missae and Vatican II.

    That is why a Catholic ought not to attend their Masses"

    We can certainly add to this, as mentioned by others, at least some doubt as to the validity of their priestly ordinations.

    The ICK are obedient sons of the Conciliar Church and will be as traditional as "obedience" allows them to be and no more. It is a compromise, quite simply, to say the least.

    We must never lose sight of the fact that we are in a fight for the Faith, first and foremost.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #57 on: October 28, 2019, 02:51:58 AM »
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  • I attended a beautiful, holy Novus Ordo Mass in my old diocese/state.  By beautiful and holy I mean reverent and worshipful. I don't know of one here. I asked a devout Catholic (online) who lives in my state in a neighboring town, who runs a website on Catholic mystics, about whether there was a reverent, devout Catholic Mass to be found anywhere in this archdiocese, or a neighboring one, and he said he didn't know of one (I am thinking he has a busy family life and church-shopping isn't on the agenda). He called the Masses in our diocese "Pretty meat and potatoes".

    Up until the invention (yes itself an innovation) of the Novus Ordo nobody, that's NO body , ever went shopping for Holy Mass (shopping for a Holy Mass is also an innovation).

     Yes. No outright modern inventions which was par for the course in my old diocese.

    Well, because you have no idea what is the Church without the attacks by the modernists you think that there ae no outright modern inventions in your old diocese. 

    ..... Now I am looking forward to a Sunday morning (Latin) Mass finally. And the option of Daily Mass those rare times I can go to it.
    I disagree that in these times, and with all I know of what is wrong with the Novus Ordo, that I am obliged to go to it and support all the "community stuff". I remember being told that in my old diocese (attend your local parish and support it) but I never felt that was right.

    Isn't it because you know in your hearty of hearts the the NO is wrong that you feel that way? If was right you would feel right about supporting it.


    ... 
    Our Church in these days is crippled and outwardly ugly. One has to have faith to see beyond horrendous appearances. When Jesus was carrying His cross, He also looked crippled and outwardly ugly BTW. I have heard it explained that the Church is going through a passion, and I agree with that assessment. It probably will end in a kind of death before a rebirth. And like the Passion, it will probably get worse before the death.  It's definitely getting worse.

    Well said, Eliza!


     And I am wondering after the CM video if our Pope is sort of a hapless misled pawn.
    No, he is willingly acting as a pawn of Satan. He knows what he is doing and why..

    We certainly need to pray for his conversion.
    No prayer is ever wasted, so yes pray for his conversion.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #58 on: October 28, 2019, 06:00:28 AM »
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  • So are we to understand by this, that if one is in danger of death and the only sacraments that can be had are doubtfully valid, we may receive them?
    And would this mean, for instance, that if I am in danger of death, and the only priest available is a "continuing Anglican" or vagus Orthodox priest, who insists that his orders and apostolic lines of succession are valid in the eyes of Rome, I may receive the sacraments?  What if he has celebrated a Mass and offers you viaticuм consecrated in that Mass?  It may be valid, it probably is valid, but you do not know that for a fact.  Do you risk committing idolatry and sacrilege by worshiping a Eucharist that could possibly be nothing more than bread (because invalid)?

    Let me be clear that I do not view the sacraments of the ICKSP as invalid or doubtfully valid.
    If one accepts the NO as Catholic and attends the NO service at all, then why would one *not* expect to have a NO priest (more likely it would be a NO lay minister) bring them a NO viaticuм in their danger of death? During their life, this person put themself in an awful position when it comes time for their danger of death - of this there is no doubt whatsoever.   

    By the same token, that particular scary thought should not really even enter into a trad's mind. I mean, who here believes that God would send a NO lay minister to give a NO viaticuм to a faithful traditional Catholic, one who altogether rejects and has sworn off the NO and lived their life faithful to only the true faith, Mass and sacraments?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #59 on: October 28, 2019, 06:12:45 AM »
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  • I want to be one of the righteous, not the few or the many.
    The OP exposes the challenges of the poster, challenges that i can recognize. It is difficult to abandon Rome outright because some of us still have nightmares and acute moral doubts as to what is the right thing to do as a Catholic re the Mass per se.

    This community's members have evidently matured their internal struggles and reached a personal comfort zone with their individual morality regarding V2 and its consequences.
    Some of us have just started to awake and open our eyes. One must appreciate (a) the pain and anguish of renouncing what some of us love as own Mother because we realize that she may not be such and (b) the agonizing doubts of what is actually the righteous thing to do regariding the liturgy itself.
    The fact that after +50 years of immersion in a multitude of false teachings which have manifested themselves in everything and are found literally everywhere, people like yourself that are still waking up serve as proof of the Church's indefectibility.
     
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse