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Author Topic: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest  (Read 7505 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2019, 01:18:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 07, 2019, 01:11:43 PM
    No, he clearly has an intent to be a bishop as he thinks he is one
    So he could be a true pope and an invalid bishop? 
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #31 on: October 07, 2019, 01:26:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 07, 2019, 12:27:36 PM
    Nonsense.

    Naturally, that is what you believe, as it appears to be your whole raison d'être.
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #32 on: October 07, 2019, 01:39:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 07, 2019, 01:18:22 PM
    So he could be a true pope and an invalid bishop?
    Pope- elect? We are getting along the lines of the cassiciacuм thesis. 
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #33 on: October 07, 2019, 03:51:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 07, 2019, 01:39:23 PM
    Pope- elect? We are getting along the lines of the cassiciacuм thesis.
    Once again, i've categorized Sedeprivationism as a form of Sedevacantism and realized not everyone does this.  Novus Ordo Watch definitely does that so its not just me.

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    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #34 on: October 12, 2019, 01:52:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 07, 2019, 11:08:10 AM
    I agree.  Does it make it certainly invalid?  I don't believe so.
    I am going to read the rest of this thread sometime this long weekend. I have to catch up on work emails first. But I was relieved to see this response as I have been wondering if anything else was to be replied after that first reply, and am just now checking back. I just want to thank you for this response! A voice of reason, to me. I understand the complete sincerity of sede arguments, and believe God honors their conscience and blesses them for their sincere faithfulness and search for purity of truth, but also i think that 99.99% of Catholics are not receiving invalid sacraments in these dark times. I cannot believe that God has deprived the vast majority of Catholics from valid Sacraments when they most need them. Nope. What is going on around us is very bad, but NOT BAD ENOUGH for that. It would be (and will be) horribly much worse when the people cannot receive the Sacraments.
    Not that sedes - what little I know of them* - are not blessed with more beautiful, more pure expressions of the Holy Sacraments. The same beauty as those of FSSP and ICKSP, but, more valid and sure.  Right?  That is a lot more riches to be given to them over what the rest of the Catholic world receives.  And to whom much is given, much is expected. The purity of their holiness and blessings of their Christlikeness should be uncomparable. We will certainly know them by their astonishingly rich fruits. And in this forum we will be bowled over by the velvet soft kindness and great charity of their words.
    _______________
    [*My knowledge is very limited of sede beliefs at this time, and is not likely to soon be enriched, as I am in a very busy time only very recently restarting a career, and recovering from environmentally-induced illness last month while also working long hours. First priority now is to get my prayer life back up to where it was before I got sick in September.]
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #35 on: October 12, 2019, 04:53:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 07, 2019, 03:51:13 PM
    Once again, i've categorized Sedeprivationism as a form of Sedevacantism and realized not everyone does this.  Novus Ordo Watch definitely does that so its not just me.

    I think that's because the majority of its proponents emphasize the vacancy parts, having converted (for various reasons) to sedeprivationism later.  Nevertheless, it's closest in reality to Father Chazal's sedimpoundism ... except that Father Chazal emphasizes the occupancy more and renounces sedeprivationism for the same reason, its having become known in popular thinking as just a slight variant on sedevacantism.  So you could look on sedeprivationism as a slightly sedevacantist-leaning and sedeimpoundism as a sedeplenist-leaning version of the same thing.  You're going to have that where such a distinction is in play ... whether the See is both vacant and occupied at the same time, in different respects.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #36 on: October 12, 2019, 04:56:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Eliza10 on October 12, 2019, 01:52:02 PM
    I am going to read the rest of this thread sometime this long weekend. I have to catch up on work emails first. But I was relieved to see this response as I have been wondering if anything else was to be replied after that first reply, and am just now checking back. I just want to thank you for this response! A voice of reason, to me. I understand the complete sincerity of sede arguments, and believe God honors their conscience and blesses them for their sincere faithfulness and search for purity of truth, but also i think that 99.99% of Catholics are not receiving invalid sacraments in these dark times. I cannot believe that God has deprived the vast majority of Catholics from valid Sacraments when they most need them. Nope. What is going on around us is very bad, but NOT BAD ENOUGH for that. It would be (and will be) horribly much worse when the people cannot receive the Sacraments.
    Not that sedes - what little I know of them* - are not blessed with more beautiful, more pure expressions of the Holy Sacraments. The same beauty as those of FSSP and ICKSP, but, more valid and sure.  Right?  That is a lot more riches to be given to them over what the rest of the Catholic world receives.  And to whom much is given, much is expected. The purity of their holiness and blessings of their Christlikeness should be uncomparable. We will certainly know them by their astonishingly rich fruits. And in this forum we will be bowled over by the velvet soft kindness and great charity of their words.
    _______________
    [*My knowledge is very limited of sede beliefs at this time, and is not likely to soon be enriched, as I am in a very busy time only very recently restarting a career, and recovering from environmentally-induced illness last month while also working long hours. First priority now is to get my prayer life back up to where it was before I got sick in September.]

    We can trust God that He has everything under control.  If some are sincere in the Novus Ordo making Holy Communion, God can provide graces from their spiritual communion that nearly approach those of actual Communion.  Some Catholics have fled to the Traditional Latin Mass, others to the Eastern Rites, where they also still have valid Sacraments.  Even if the Novus Ordo is invalid nearly 100% of the time, God can still provide grace to those who seek it.  So worry not.

    Just a quick note on "sede beliefs". Logically speaking, the question of sedevacante and the validity of the Sacraments are not necessarily tied together.  Not a few in the R&R camp also doubt the validity of the NO Sacraments.  But R&R does tend to push in favor of validity, since it's hard to imagine a legitimate Pope promulgating an invalid Sacramental Rite.  Of course, it's equally hard to imagine a legitimate Pope promulgating a bad or harmful Rite also, which is why you have sedevacantists.  I myself hold that it is NOT possible for a legitimate Pope to promulgate EITHER an invalid OR a harmful Rite, which is why I lean in that direction, toward sedeprivationism, but I add the qualification that I am not competent to make this decision, and only the Church is.  I only go so far as I need to in order to justify, in my conscience, having severed Communion with the visible/material hierarchy.

    Even among sedevacantists, you'll find some who say that it's possible the Rites are valid, but that they are positively doubtful.  Of course, you will find those also who assert that they are certainly invalid.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #37 on: October 12, 2019, 05:04:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on October 07, 2019, 01:26:33 PM
    Naturally, that is what you believe, as it appears to be your whole raison d'être.

    No, this is simple logic.  Validity and the Legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants are two logically separate questions.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #38 on: October 12, 2019, 05:07:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on October 07, 2019, 01:39:23 PM
    Pope- elect? We are getting along the lines of the cassiciacuм thesis.

    Well, yes, I think so.  Sedeprivationists actually use this very analogy.  If you had a layman who was elected Pope, and he refused to be consecrated a bishop, I actually believe that he would be materially but not formally Pope, and the Church could then withdraw the election, since the form was never joined to the matter by God ... just like a non-consummated marriage can be annulled.  By definition the Pope must be a Bishop, the Bishop of Rome.  Otherwise, he's no successor to the Apostles, and cannot exercise any teaching authority.  And what is a Pope without teaching authority but a hollow shell?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #39 on: October 12, 2019, 05:34:26 PM »
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    Just a quick note on "sede beliefs". Logically speaking, the question of sedevacante and the validity of the Sacraments are not necessarily tied together.  Not a few in the R&R camp also doubt the validity of the NO Sacraments.  But R&R does tend to push in favor of validity, since it's hard to imagine a legitimate Pope promulgating an invalid Sacramental Rite.  Of course, it's equally hard to imagine a legitimate Pope promulgating a bad or harmful Rite also, which is why you have sedevacantists.  I myself hold that it is NOT possible for a legitimate Pope to promulgate EITHER an invalid OR a harmful Rite, which is why I lean in that direction, toward sedeprivationism, but I add the qualification that I am not competent to make this decision, and only the Church is.  I only go so far as I need to in order to justify, in my conscience, having severed Communion with the visible/material hierarchy.

    Even among sedevacantists, you'll find some who say that it's possible the Rites are valid, but that they are positively doubtful.  Of course, you will find those also who assert that they are certainly invalid.
    I personally find it a lot easier to believe a true Pope could promulgate a bad or harmful rite than a truly invalid one.  Though saying its bad and harfmul while also valid has gradations.  Like what do we mean by harmful exactly?  if its valid it has the possiblity of someone receiving true grace through it, which is a separate question from whether its harmful *compared* to the alternative of attending a Tridentine or Eastern liturgy, which is a separate question from whether the mass itself is pleasing to God.  
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    Offline Eliza10

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #40 on: October 12, 2019, 06:49:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 04:56:05 PM
    We can trust God that He has everything under control.  If some are sincere in the Novus Ordo making Holy Communion, God can provide graces from their spiritual communion that nearly approach those of actual Communion.  Some Catholics have fled to the Traditional Latin Mass, others to the Eastern Rites, where they also still have valid Sacraments.  Even if the Novus Ordo is invalid nearly 100% of the time, God can still provide grace to those who seek it.  So worry not.

    Just a quick note on "sede beliefs". Logically speaking, the question of sedevacante and the validity of the Sacraments are not necessarily tied together.  Not a few in the R&R camp also doubt the validity of the NO Sacraments.  But R&R does tend to push in favor of validity, since it's hard to imagine a legitimate Pope promulgating an invalid Sacramental Rite.  Of course, it's equally hard to imagine a legitimate Pope promulgating a bad or harmful Rite also, which is why you have sedevacantists.  I myself hold that it is NOT possible for a legitimate Pope to promulgate EITHER an invalid OR a harmful Rite, which is why I lean in that direction, toward sedeprivationism, but I add the qualification that I am not competent to make this decision, and only the Church is.  I only go so far as I need to in order to justify, in my conscience, having severed Communion with the visible/material hierarchy.

    Even among sedevacantists, you'll find some who say that it's possible the Rites are valid, but that they are positively doubtful.  Of course, you will find those also who assert that they are certainly invalid.
    I see. Thanks for the explanation. But what is R&R? (I assume not rest & relaxation.;D ) 
    What holds me back from looking any closer is the idea that the vast, vast majority of Catholics are receiving invalid Sacraments, and only a less than 1% of Catholics have what Protestants don't. That is the Holy Spirit withdrawing in a huge way. I had an rich faith with just me, Jesus, my Bible and my local church of faithful believers. Jesus through unexpected circuмstance showed me the truth of the Catholic faith. For it I gave up what had been central in my faith life - friends, community, fellowship, identity and all things I loved about worship.  But to be Catholic was worth the loss. I used to wonder, "How does one grow in holiness?" as I strived to do so through Bible studies, conferences, retreats and spiritual reading. Now I knew! God gave us the Sacraments to grow in holiness. It is his ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary graces. These Sacraments are real, and not my imagination.
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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #41 on: October 20, 2019, 05:23:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 07, 2019, 11:31:37 AM
    Heck, I think you could make a case that perhaps an ordinary person could figure out that the Novus Ordo is bad, especially if its sufficiently irreverent, but this the average person would never even think to ask.
    Sorry for this OT.

    ByzCat3000... as a newbie here and a Catholic who just opened his eyes, you have no idea how much I mirror myself in your comment!

    You put your finger on the wound. "...but this the average person would never even think to ask.". The average Joe, as myself, would never even have dared to ask. A parishoner questioning his own minister on the validity of his Mass' liturgy?

    I often had doubts but I could never bring myself to even imagine debating about the liturgy, let alone challenging it. It is not out of fear of the priest but out of (a) sheer, culpable, unforgivable, ignorance of our Faith and (b) obedience to the powers that be. Ignorance is the tool used by dictators to acquiesce its populus.

    Already 40 years ago, Catechism was a very watered down study course that did not require proficiency to be passed. Modernism accepted the faithfuls' ignorance.

    This is why I argue that, perhaps, Catholic schools are more important that Catholic Churches.

    I +1 the OP, as I find myself in her very same shoes and I am assailed by doubts, every night, as I make my evening prayers... "can I receive communion from this priest or that priest?", "should I confess my horrendous (heretic) thoughts about the Holy Father's unreceivable words?", "am I leading my family astray?". etc., etc..

    It is simple for the educated to feel so confident about their choices. But those of us who just opened their eyes need the educated's support, patience, understanding, love and praiers.

    I am not making a case for our justification or for pity as I deserve neither: I was intellectually indolent. But my error is common, not because modernism is easier and faster, but because Catholics, in good faith, have no reason to doubt Mother Church and follow those who lead it.

    So, please, condone our seemingly silly questions... this forum may be an instrument of God and those more knowledgeable may be His tool.


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    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #42 on: October 20, 2019, 05:37:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 05:07:14 PM
    Well, yes, I think so.  Sedeprivationists actually use this very analogy.  If you had a layman who was elected Pope, and he refused to be consecrated a bishop, I actually believe that he would be materially but not formally Pope, and the Church could then withdraw the election, since the form was never joined to the matter by God ... just like a non-consummated marriage can be annulled.  By definition the Pope must be a Bishop, the Bishop of Rome.  Otherwise, he's no successor to the Apostles, and cannot exercise any teaching authority.  And what is a Pope without teaching authority but a hollow shell?
    But, if I understand this community correctly, today it proposes the opposite: ... you have a Bishop who was elected Pope, and refused to adhere to Catholic fundamental principles ... he would be formally but not materially Pope.




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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #43 on: October 21, 2019, 12:46:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: ascanio1 on October 20, 2019, 05:23:40 PM
    Sorry for this OT.

    ByzCat3000... as a newbie here and a Catholic who just opened his eyes, you have no idea how much I mirror myself in your comment!

    You put your finger on the wound. "...but this the average person would never even think to ask.". The average Joe, as myself, would never even have dared to ask. A parishoner questioning his own minister on the validity of his Mass' liturgy?

    I often had doubts but I could never bring myself to even imagine debating about the liturgy, let alone challenging it. It is not out of fear of the priest but out of (a) sheer, culpable, unforgivable, ignorance of our Faith and (b) obedience to the powers that be. Ignorance is the tool used by dictators to acquiesce its populus.

    Already 40 years ago, Catechism was a very watered down study course that did not require proficiency to be passed. Modernism accepted the faithfuls' ignorance.

    This is why I argue that, perhaps, Catholic schools are more important that Catholic Churches.

    I +1 the OP, as I find myself in her very same shoes and I am assailed by doubts, every night, as I make my evening prayers... "can I receive communion from this priest or that priest?", "should I confess my horrendous (heretic) thoughts about the Holy Father's unreceivable words?", "am I leading my family astray?". etc., etc..

    It is simple for the educated to feel so confident about their choices. But those of us who just opened their eyes need the educated's support, patience, understanding, love and praiers.

    I am not making a case for our justification or for pity as I deserve neither: I was intellectually indolent. But my error is common, not because modernism is easier and faster, but because Catholics, in good faith, have no reason to doubt Mother Church and follow those who lead it.

    So, please, condone our seemingly silly questions... this forum may be an instrument of God and those more knowledgeable may be His tool.
    I’m a new convert myself, this year.  I went Byzantine rite as it seemed safer to me.  Not that there are zero problems but everything is at least unquestionably valid 
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    Offline clarkaim

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    Re: The Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest
    « Reply #44 on: October 23, 2019, 02:33:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Eliza10 on October 12, 2019, 06:49:03 PM
    I see. Thanks for the explanation. But what is R&R? (I assume not rest & relaxation.;D )
    What holds me back from looking any closer is the idea that the vast, vast majority of Catholics are receiving invalid Sacraments, and only a less than 1% of Catholics have what Protestants don't. That is the Holy Spirit withdrawing in a huge way. I had an rich faith with just me, Jesus, my Bible and my local church of faithful believers. Jesus through unexpected circuмstance showed me the truth of the Catholic faith. For it I gave up what had been central in my faith life - friends, community, fellowship, identity and all things I loved about worship.  But to be Catholic was worth the loss. I used to wonder, "How does one grow in holiness?" as I strived to do so through Bible studies, conferences, retreats and spiritual reading. Now I knew! God gave us the Sacraments to grow in holiness. It is his ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary graces. These Sacraments are real, and not my imagination.
    You have to ask yourself WHY do you want to go to ICKSP mass?  one of your earlier points had much to do with what I would call "sentiments" , adjectives like "beautiful" or MORE PURE.  All of this can be answered by asking t question "Is the Novus Ordo, in all it's accouterments CATHOLIC or NOT.   IT IS REALLY AS SIMPLE AS THAT.  If it is, you are obligated to attend your local parish and support all "Community" stuff you can.  You really aren't justified in going any where else are you?  if this was 1937 an you asked your Pastor, what would he say?  I think you know. Oh but bergoglio says it's now ok to go to a latin mass?  Read what they say!!k  ONLY for such sentimental attachments as you've described and you are not ALLOWED to question the doctrinal purity of the VII church, something all of us "trads" DO.  We are ultimately all sede, whether via honestly or practicaly, fusing what ever mental gymnastics we can muster to leave us a fallback.  Be advised it is DOGMA that the church cannot feed poison to it's children.  So either the N.O. is Catholic 100% or it is NOT 100%.  A thing cannot be and not be at the same time, Hamlet not withstanding.  
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