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Author Topic: The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity  (Read 7551 times)

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Offline s2srea

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The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2011, 11:00:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    I don't think you properly understand the charism of infallibility nor the infallibility of the Church. You believe the pope can be an unorthodox head of the Catholic Church. This is wrong.


    If it was this simple, there would be no sede vs non-sede debate.

    Offline s2srea

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #31 on: May 27, 2011, 11:03:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: s2srea
    Sede's consider the pope a perfect super-human doctrinal saint.


    You have a very poor understanding of what SVs actually think, as NO SV thinks what you describe.  I am not sure whence you obtained this idea, but it would be wise to lose it -- as it is utterly erroneous.


    Sorry GV- I'm not the most learned cat on the block, but I'm only responding to what I see written. Its not so much that sede's have said those very words, its how they act (per se) and is the spirit of their writings.


    Offline SJB

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #32 on: May 27, 2011, 11:03:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: SJB
    I don't think you properly understand the charism of infallibility nor the infallibility of the Church. You believe the pope can be an unorthodox head of the Catholic Church. This is wrong.


    If it was this simple, there would be no sede vs non-sede debate.


    Well, that's where the theological sources come in. I didn't say it was simple, but following the approved sources is the correct way for a Catholic to analyze it.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline s2srea

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011, 11:04:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Well, that's where the theological sources come in. I didn't say it was simple, but following the approved sources is the correct way for a Catholic to analyze it.


    Yet there is still debate? Not being simple, and making an opinion a dogma (or at least acting that way) are two different things.

    Offline SJB

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #34 on: May 27, 2011, 11:08:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: SJB
    Well, that's where the theological sources come in. I didn't say it was simple, but following the approved sources is the correct way for a Catholic to analyze it.


    Yet there is still debate? Not being simple, and making an opinion a dogma (or at least acting that way) are two different things.


    Caminus (and you?) makes the sedeplentist position dogmatic. I am opposed to any dogmatic stance, be it sedeplentist or sedevacantist.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #35 on: May 27, 2011, 11:20:21 AM »
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  • I'm sorry I don't know what sedeplentism is...?

    Offline SJB

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #36 on: May 27, 2011, 11:22:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    I'm sorry I don't know what sedeplentism is...?


    It is a dogmatic fact that B16 is a true pope and must be recognized as such.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #37 on: May 27, 2011, 11:30:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: s2srea
    I'm sorry I don't know what sedeplentism is...?


    It is a dogmatic fact that B16 is a true pope and must be recognized as such.


    In that case, I am not. I personally believe he may or may not be pope. Regardless, we have no authority to make that decision apart from holding personal opinions. Once you become a lay member, or a priest or bishop,  preaching this and telling people it MUST be true and it is imperative they believe this as well, it is erroneous and dangerous.

    I don't think anyone has ever been condemned for not being sedevecantist in the history of the church, have they? Can you find that in any catechism?


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #38 on: May 27, 2011, 12:29:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: s2srea
    I'm sorry I don't know what sedeplentism is...?


    It is a dogmatic fact that B16 is a true pope and must be recognized as such.


    In that case, I am not. I personally believe he may or may not be pope. Regardless, we have no authority to make that decision apart from holding personal opinions. Once you become a lay member, or a priest or bishop,  preaching this and telling people it MUST be true and it is imperative they believe this as well, it is erroneous and dangerous.

    I don't think anyone has ever been condemned for not being sedevecantist in the history of the church, have they? Can you find that in any catechism?


    Quote from: Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
    7. And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends. For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: "That they all may be one.... And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,"[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. For they are of the opinion that the unity of faith and government, which is a note of the one true Church of Christ, has hardly up to the present time existed, and does not to-day exist. They consider that this unity may indeed be desired and that it may even be one day attained through the instrumentality of wills directed to a common end, but that meanwhile it can only be regarded as mere ideal. They add that the Church in itself, or of its nature, is divided into sections; that is to say, that it is made up of several churches or distinct communities, which still remain separate, and although having certain articles of doctrine in common, nevertheless disagree concerning the remainder; that these all enjoy the same rights; and that the Church was one and unique from, at the most, the apostolic age until the first Ecuмenical Councils. Controversies therefore, they say, and longstanding differences of opinion which keep asunder till the present day the members of the Christian family, must be entirely put aside, and from the remaining doctrines a common form of faith drawn up and proposed for belief, and in the profession of which all may not only know but feel that they are brothers. The manifold churches or communities, if united in some kind of universal federation, would then be in a position to oppose strongly and with success the progress of irreligion. This, Venerable Brethren, is what is commonly said. There are some, indeed, who recognize and affirm that Protestantism, as they call it, has rejected, with a great lack of consideration, certain articles of faith and some external ceremonies, which are, in fact, pleasing and useful, and which the Roman Church still retains. They soon, however, go on to say that that Church also has erred, and corrupted the original religion by adding and proposing for belief certain doctrines which are not only alien to the Gospel, but even repugnant to it. Among the chief of these they number that which concerns the primacy of jurisdiction, which was granted to Peter and to his successors in the See of Rome. Among them there indeed are some, though few, who grant to the Roman Pontiff a primacy of honor or even a certain jurisdiction or power, but this, however, they consider not to arise from the divine law but from the consent of the faithful. Others again, even go so far as to wish the Pontiff Himself to preside over their motley, so to say, assemblies. But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline LordPhan

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #39 on: May 27, 2011, 12:57:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: s2srea
    I'm sorry I don't know what sedeplentism is...?


    It is a dogmatic fact that B16 is a true pope and must be recognized as such.


    In that case, I am not. I personally believe he may or may not be pope. Regardless, we have no authority to make that decision apart from holding personal opinions. Once you become a lay member, or a priest or bishop,  preaching this and telling people it MUST be true and it is imperative they believe this as well, it is erroneous and dangerous.

    I don't think anyone has ever been condemned for not being sedevecantist in the history of the church, have they? Can you find that in any catechism?


    Quote from: Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
    7. And here it seems opportune to expound and to refute a certain false opinion, on which this whole question, as well as that complex movement by which non-Catholics seek to bring about the union of the Christian churches depends. For authors who favor this view are accustomed, times almost without number, to bring forward these words of Christ: "That they all may be one.... And there shall be one fold and one shepherd,"[14] with this signification however: that Christ Jesus merely expressed a desire and prayer, which still lacks its fulfillment. For they are of the opinion that the unity of faith and government, which is a note of the one true Church of Christ, has hardly up to the present time existed, and does not to-day exist. They consider that this unity may indeed be desired and that it may even be one day attained through the instrumentality of wills directed to a common end, but that meanwhile it can only be regarded as mere ideal. They add that the Church in itself, or of its nature, is divided into sections; that is to say, that it is made up of several churches or distinct communities, which still remain separate, and although having certain articles of doctrine in common, nevertheless disagree concerning the remainder; that these all enjoy the same rights; and that the Church was one and unique from, at the most, the apostolic age until the first Ecuмenical Councils. Controversies therefore, they say, and longstanding differences of opinion which keep asunder till the present day the members of the Christian family, must be entirely put aside, and from the remaining doctrines a common form of faith drawn up and proposed for belief, and in the profession of which all may not only know but feel that they are brothers. The manifold churches or communities, if united in some kind of universal federation, would then be in a position to oppose strongly and with success the progress of irreligion. This, Venerable Brethren, is what is commonly said. There are some, indeed, who recognize and affirm that Protestantism, as they call it, has rejected, with a great lack of consideration, certain articles of faith and some external ceremonies, which are, in fact, pleasing and useful, and which the Roman Church still retains. They soon, however, go on to say that that Church also has erred, and corrupted the original religion by adding and proposing for belief certain doctrines which are not only alien to the Gospel, but even repugnant to it. Among the chief of these they number that which concerns the primacy of jurisdiction, which was granted to Peter and to his successors in the See of Rome. Among them there indeed are some, though few, who grant to the Roman Pontiff a primacy of honor or even a certain jurisdiction or power, but this, however, they consider not to arise from the divine law but from the consent of the faithful. Others again, even go so far as to wish the Pontiff Himself to preside over their motley, so to say, assemblies. But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.



    Your quote did not answer his question, nor was your quote even about his question. Moralium Animos is the condemnation of Ecuмanism with heretics, heathens and apostates. Your highlighted portion in its proper context refers to protestants believing that the church at the time of it's writing 1927 I believe, was in error on it's most fundemental levels. It then goes on later to state that holding meetings with these people is wrong, would lead to corrupting the beliefs of the true church etc. etc.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    The inherent gnosticism of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity
    « Reply #40 on: May 27, 2011, 03:42:00 PM »
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  • It would be impossible for someone to be condemned for not being a sedevacantist.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #41 on: May 27, 2011, 04:40:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    It would be impossible for someone to be condemned for not being a sedevacantist.


    Exactly. Yet many sedes- here and elsewhere- while not saying it (most of the time) have this attitude.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #42 on: May 27, 2011, 04:49:13 PM »
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  • Many non-sedes have the contrary attitude.  So be it.

    Ignore the dogmatic members of either camp.  They serve the Enemy's designs.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #43 on: May 27, 2011, 04:51:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    I don't think anyone has ever been condemned for not being sedevecantist in the history of the church, have they? Can you find that in any catechism?


    Has anyone been condemned for being a sedevacantist?  Can you find that in any catechism?

    No.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #44 on: May 27, 2011, 04:54:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    Your quote did not answer his question, nor was your quote even about his question.


    With all due respect, his question is not really all that impressive or difficult to answer.  

    No one will find the condemnation of a sedevacantist or non-sedevacantist, as such, in any catechism (especially since catechisms are used to teach, not to record such things).
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."