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Author Topic: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism  (Read 8630 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2023, 11:56:57 PM »
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  • For the purpose of this post, I …

    RandomFish, are you John Salza?

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #16 on: September 29, 2023, 12:53:32 AM »
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  • Mr. Salsa, please debate Peter Dimond.  Thank you. 


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #17 on: September 29, 2023, 03:19:51 AM »
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  • Please provide proof for your assertion as follows:
    1. That the condemnation of religious liberty is a dogma (divinely revealed article of faith or connected to a dogma such that the denial of it would be a denial of another dogma) under pain of heresy in pre-conciliar teaching.
    2. That Vatican II, or post conciliar doctrine, taught to the contrary.

    1) The heresy of religious liberty is condemned by Pope Pius IX in his encyclical Quanta Cura. He also references Pope Gregory XVI calling religious liberty, insanity. But please keep in mind that True councils of the Catholic Church can’t contain any error whatsoever, so if you want to argue that the condemnation of RL is not necessarily dogmatic, it still would be contradicting past teaching of the Church.


    2) Vatican II’s Dignitatis Humae.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #18 on: September 29, 2023, 03:27:47 AM »
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  • Strawman argument.

    The topic does not address the question of church membership; only the inconsistency of sedevacantist conclusions reached from contradictory and mutually exclusive foundations.

    The sedevacantist must choose one of the following to remain consistent:
    1. The Catholic Church is false.
    2. Ordinary Papal magisterium is reversible and as such can be incorrect.

    There is no other option.

    Can’t be Salza.  There is no way anyone who wrote a huge book against sedevacantism is this clueless about what it’s adherents believe.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #19 on: September 29, 2023, 03:29:57 AM »
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  • That's not correct.  SVism holds that they are usurpers, illegitimate, etc. because the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the One True Church of Christ, and the papacy is protected by the Holy Ghost from substantially altering the Church into something that lacks these marks.

    We have a corrupt Magisterium, an entirely novel and non-Catholic system of theology (not just a few isolated statement in Vatican II), a novel non-Catholic ecclesiology where the schismatic and heretical "Churches" can be part of the Church of Christ, a complete and consistent rejection of EENS dogma (culminating in Jorge's recent declaration of schismatic "martyrs", verbatim contradicting the teaching of the Council of Florence that there can be no salvation outside the Church even if one were to shed his blood for Christ), the promotion of religious indifferentism.

    We have a "Mass" that differs not a lick from Cranmer's abomination and is consistent with Luther's butchery of the Catholic Mass, complete with a replacement of the Catholic Offertory (which Luther hated with a passion), replacing it with a тαℓмυdic "table blessing".

    We have masses of obviously bogus canonizations, and popes are also prevented by the Holy Ghost from issuing bogus canonizations.

    There's nothing in the Conciliar Church that resembles the mark of "Holiness" nor "Oneness", as there as as many heresies floating out there as there are Conciliar bishops.  Jorge promotes the heretics and Modernists and punishes the relatively-faithful bishops like Strickland.

    If St. Pius X had been time-warped forward to today and been shown the Conciliar Church, would he have recognized it as the Catholic Church had he not been told that it was?  Absolutely not.  Ergo, the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  It's as simple as that, and one need not have a degree in theology to dissect the propositions of Vatican II.  Simple faithful can see that.  When I first became a Traditional Catholic, I read a book by St. Alphonsus Liguori and realized, without any theological analysis, that the faith this man exhibits in his books is not the same faith and the same religion that the Conciliar Church puts into practice.


    Great post!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #20 on: September 29, 2023, 06:08:32 AM »
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  • Great post!

    I've always felt that there's this misconception that the recognition of the Conciliar Church depends on a careful theological analysis of various passages in Vatican II.  God does not require the faithful to be theologians, and very few Traditional Catholics start their journey toward it for theological reasons.  It's because the sensus Catholicus indicates that this Conciliar Church is something other than the Catholic Church.  You put the pre-V2 Church (going back to the early Church) side by side with the Conciliar Church, and they are substantially different, not the same thing.  That's why I apply the little thought experiment of time-warping St. Pius X or a St. Pius V to today and asking them what the Conciliar Church is.  They wouldn't recognize it as the Catholic Church, but would think it to be some Protestant sect.

    Our Lord says that His sheep know His voice, and we do not recognize the Voice of the Shepherd in Jorge Bergoglio.  It's as simple as that.

    And of course we put all the prophetic dots together.  We have Our Lady warning that something was going to happen around 1960, we have the words of the Church's enemies that they're going to attempt to infiltrate and subvert the Church, we have one prophecy after another about a false Church, an anti-Church, a false Pope, an uncanonically elected pope, and Pope Leo XIII's prophetic words in the longer prayer to St. Michael about their attempts to set up their own throne in place of the See of St. Peter.

    Even Stevie Wonder can see that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  Protestants and other non-Catholics have noticed the substantial change.  Protestants denounce Jorge as a heretic.

    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #21 on: September 29, 2023, 08:04:52 AM »
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  • 1) The heresy of religious liberty is condemned by Pope Pius IX in his encyclical Quanta Cura. He also references Pope Gregory XVI calling religious liberty, insanity. But please keep in mind that True councils of the Catholic Church can’t contain any error whatsoever, so if you want to argue that the condemnation of RL is not necessarily dogmatic, it still would be contradicting past teaching of the Church.


    2) Vatican II’s Dignitatis Humae.

    You failed to demonstrate what I asked of you.

    Where in Quanta Cura is it stated that religious liberty is heretical?

    Pope Gregory XVI referring to religious liberty as insanity is also not tantamount to the same thing as heresy.

    Heresy, strictly, defined is the denial of a divinely revealed truth in revelation mediated by the magisterium or taught in the ordinary and universal faith.

    Religious liberty is not condemned in the early church and there is no revelation in scripture or tradition directly pertaining to it. In fact, the patriotic evidence is to the contrary!

    Tertullian wrote:

    “It is only just and a privilege inherent in human nature that every person should be able to worship according to his own convictions; the religious practice of one person neither harms nor helps another.”
    Let one man worship God, another Jupiter; let one lift suppliant hands to the heavens, another to the altar of Fides; let one — if you choose to take this view of it — count in prayer the clouds, and another the ceiling panels; let one consecrate his own life to his God, and another that of a goat. For see that you do not give a further ground for the charge of irreligion, by taking away religious liberty, and forbidding free choice of deity, so that I may no longer worship according to my inclination, but am compelled to worship against it. Not even a human being would care to have unwilling homage rendered him.”

    The other patristic figures do not even mention it.

    Regarding what you mentioned of ecuмenical councils not containing error whatsoever; distinguished. For dogmas, granted. For anything else, denied. Ecuмenical councils regularly reversed or contradicted ordinary Papal teachings and even other ecuмenical doctrines not definitively settled. Even Popes regularly contradicted each other and their own teachings in ordinary Papal magisterium. See Bellarmine’s “On Councils” for further details on the matter on councils and the various editions of Denzinger since publication for examples of non-definitive papal error.

    Lastly, you failed to demonstrate how Dignitatis Humanae contradicts Quanta Cura even if we grant that the former is infallible which it is not and cannot be because it is not rooted in revelation or tradition prior to the pre-modern era.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #22 on: September 29, 2023, 08:14:04 AM »
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  • You failed to demonstrate what I asked of you.

    Where in Quanta Cura is it stated that religious liberty is heretical?

    Pope Gregory XVI referring to religious liberty as insanity is also not tantamount to the same thing as heresy.

    Heresy, strictly, defined is the denial of a divinely revealed truth in revelation mediated by the magisterium or taught in the ordinary and universal faith.

    Religious liberty is not condemned in the early church and there is no revelation in scripture or tradition directly pertaining to it. In fact, the patriotic evidence is to the contrary!

    Tertullian wrote:

    “It is only just and a privilege inherent in human nature that every person should be able to worship according to his own convictions; the religious practice of one person neither harms nor helps another.”
    Let one man worship God, another Jupiter; let one lift suppliant hands to the heavens, another to the altar of Fides; let one — if you choose to take this view of it — count in prayer the clouds, and another the ceiling panels; let one consecrate his own life to his God, and another that of a goat. For see that you do not give a further ground for the charge of irreligion, by taking away religious liberty, and forbidding free choice of deity, so that I may no longer worship according to my inclination, but am compelled to worship against it. Not even a human being would care to have unwilling homage rendered him.”

    The other patristic figures do not even mention it.

    Regarding what you mentioned of ecuмenical councils not containing error whatsoever; distinguished. For dogmas, granted. For anything else, denied. Ecuмenical councils regularly reversed or contradicted ordinary Papal teachings and even other ecuмenical doctrines not definitively settled. Even Popes regularly contradicted each other and their own teachings in ordinary Papal magisterium. See Bellarmine’s “On Councils” for further details on the matter on councils and the various editions of Denzinger since publication for examples of non-definitive papal error.

    Lastly, you failed to demonstrate how Dignitatis Humanae contradicts Quanta Cura even if we grant that the former is infallible which it is not and cannot be because it is not rooted in revelation or tradition prior to the pre-modern era.

    All I needed to read was: “Lastly, you failed to demonstrate how Dignitatis Humanae contradicts Quanta Cura”. You apparently never read the two, but if you actually did, you have absolutely no business debating anything, let alone religion. This is tantamount to asking me to demonstrate that the Sun gives light. I don’t waist my time with modernists.

    😂
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #23 on: September 29, 2023, 08:31:26 AM »
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  • The Vatican 2 church certainly violates teachings that were taught dogmatically.

    The consecration of the wine in the Novus Ordo Mass says "pro omnibus" where Scripture says "pro multis". Now, every word of Scripture is de fide. Therefore the Novus Ordo contradicts Scripture. And that's before you get into the question of the sacrament being made invalid thereby.

    The Council of Trent defined dogmatically: "Canon 9. If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only;[28] or that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice because it is contrary to the institution of Christ,[29] let him be anathema."

    The Novus Ordo goes against the underlined parts. (And the expression "Let him be anathema" means the condemnation is dogmatic and de fide.)

    Adultery has always been taught dogmatically to be a mortal sin. Receiving Holy Communion in mortal sin has always been taught dogmatically to be a mortal sin. But in Amoris Laetitia it says that adulterers can receive Holy Communion.

    False worship has always been taught to be a mortal sin and a violation of the 1st commandment. Now, the 1st commandment is de fide. Christians in the early Church died glorious martyrdoms rather than sacrifice to a pagan deity. And yet the people you claim are the pope have all worshiped in false rites many times each, with pagans, Muslims, Jєωs, animists, Buddhists, etc.

    Vatican 2 teaches that schismatics, heretics et al. are "in partial communion" with the Catholic Church. This contradicts the words of the Nicene Creed: "I believe in ... the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." If the Church is one, it cannot be partially in non-Catholic sects.

    Dignitatis Humanae in Vatican 2 contradicts the Syllabus of Errors almost verbatim.

    This is just off the top of my head, but these are just a few of the numerous ways in which the Vatican 2 church contradicts dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church and therefore must be a false religion.
    There are a few errors and inconsistencies in your post:

    1. “Many” is a Biblical idiom that sometimes means “all.” Daniel 12:2 is written of the general resurrection and states, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Here “many” means “all.”
    Moreover cuм Occasione in condemnation of the Jansenists: "It is Semi-Pelagian to say that Christ died or shed His blood for all men." - Condemned.

    2. Trent not only didn't anathematize the use of the vernacular in the Roman rite (it only anathematized those who condemned the use of Latin) actually allowed Rome to permit the use of the vernacular, and it was allowed for a while in the Roman rite in central Europe in the wake of Trent. Moreover, the NOM does not condemn the silent canon.

    3. As for Amoris Laetitia and communion to those in objective mortal sin, see here: https://reducedculpability.blog/2018/02/13/amoris-laetitia-and-the-1917-code-of-canon-law/

    4. Personal false worship by individual Popes is not a new matter. The Synod of Rome of 963 accused John XII drinking a toast to the Devil, and while playing at dice invoked the name of Jupiter, Venus and other pagan gods. So personal piety is not related to the magisterial power of the Pope.

    5. What you claim Vatican II teaches regarding partial communion is the same thing taught by Pius IX in Quartus Supra and Pius XII in Mystici Corporis 22 . Do you consider them heretics?

    6. See my response QVD regarding religious liberty.

    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #24 on: September 29, 2023, 08:32:16 AM »
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  • All I needed to read was: “Lastly, you failed to demonstrate how Dignitatis Humanae contradicts Quanta Cura”. You apparently never read the two, but if you actually did, you have absolutely no business debating anything, let alone religion. This is tantamount to asking me to demonstrate that the Sun gives light. I don’t waist my time with modernists.

    😂


    Thanks for the discussion.

    In case you ever decide to expand your breadth of knowledge beyond name calling:

    https://thejosias.com/2014/12/31/religious-liberty-and-tradition-i/

    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #25 on: September 29, 2023, 08:47:39 AM »
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  • Not one person addressed the crux of the initial post. If Etsi Multa is right then Sedevacantism cannot be true. If Etsi Multa is wrong then why not Quanta Cura and all the rest?


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #26 on: September 29, 2023, 09:11:05 AM »
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  • OK let's address Etsi Multa. I don't believe the Pope fell into heresy, only that no Pope has been elected for some time.

    Regarding the bishops, all of those who fell into heresy lost their office and are no longer bishops.

    We don't hold that the Church, the Pope or an Ecuмenical Council has taught error.

    On the other hand, Etsi Multa applies very nicely to the Lefebvrites who stand defenseless against their indictment for calling an ecuмenical council erroneous.

    Likewise, we're not the ones blindly following a bishop who entered not by the gate.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #27 on: September 29, 2023, 09:19:02 AM »
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  • Not one person addressed the crux of the initial post. If Etsi Multa is right then Sedevacantism cannot be true. If Etsi Multa is wrong then why not Quanta Cura and all the rest?
    Random,

    Hi. I agree that no one has really addressed the "crux" of your post. That happens often around here, but it is understandable, concerning the topics of discussion, their significance. The subject matters we discuss naturally call forth passion and strong emotions. If I have more time, I'll try to engage the "crux" of your initial post.

    As to the religious liberty issue, John Daly advanced the Sede argument with brevity and concision,  so I'll just paste it here. I'd be interested in your response:

    Quote

    Is there a contradiction between Vatican II’s declaration on religious liberty (Dignitatis Humanae) and traditional Catholic doctrine as expressed in numerous encyclicals, and most especially in Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura? In recent years some intellectual conservatives have audaciously denied that there is any such contradiction. Before commenting on their attempts, let us remind ourselves of the texts:


    Quanta Cura: “…against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that ‘the best condition of civil society is that in which no duty is attributed to the civil power of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except insofar as public peace may require.’

    “From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, viz., that ‘liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man and ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society’.”

    Dignitatis Humanae (Vatican II): “This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious liberty. Such liberty consists in this: that all men must be immune to coercion whether on the part of individuals, social bodies or any human power so that in religious matters no one is constrained to act against his conscience or prevented from acting in accordance with his conscience in private and in public, alone or with others, within due limits [these due limits are defined in paragraph 7 as being those of public peace and morality].

    “It further declares that the right to religious liberty is truly founded on the very dignity of the human person as known by the revealed word of God and reason itself.

    “This right of the human person to religious liberty in the juridical ordering of society is to be recognised so as to become a civil right.”

    Now to all appearances these texts are in radical contradiction on three points. Pope Pius IX condemns the following ideas: 1. all men have a right to liberty of conscience and of worship; 2. this right of religious liberty should be made a civil right in every well-ordered society; 3. the best state of society is that in which men’s civil right to religious liberty is limited only by the demands of public peace.

    These three points condemned by Pius IX are all three apparently taught by the Vatican II text. Moreover Pope Pius IX is exercising the Extraordinary Magisterium and teaches that these propositions are opposed to Holy Scripture (written divine revelation) while Vatican II declares its opposing doctrine to be founded on the revealed word of God and requires all Catholics to observe its teaching religiously.

    https://romeward.com/articles/239750983/religious-liberty-the-failed-attempts-to-defend-vatican-ii

    Daly seems to be arguing that one of these views must be heretical, since they are contradictory (again, in his view) and both say their views are "divinely revealed." If they are both revealed, and opposed to one another, one of them is contrary to divine revelation, and necessarily heretical. That appears to be the reasoning. 

    As I said, I'd like to hear your response.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #28 on: September 29, 2023, 09:45:46 AM »
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  • Random,

    Hi. I agree that no one has really addressed the "crux" of your post. That happens often around here, but it is understandable, concerning the topics of discussion, their significance. 


    No, the problem is that his attribution of this problem to SVism is a strawman.  SVs do not, as per etsi multa claim that the Catholic hierarchy has fallen into heresy.  That accusation is more against R&R than anyone else.  As Salza usually does, he begs the question that these men are the popes, and uses circular reasoning.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #29 on: September 29, 2023, 09:48:16 AM »
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  • Not one person addressed the crux of the initial post. If Etsi Multa is right then Sedevacantism cannot be true. If Etsi Multa is wrong then why not Quanta Cura and all the rest?

    I've addressed it by explaining that no SV holds the propositions that are condemned in etsi multa and that it's more a problem for R&R.

    What part of this do you not understand?  You talk about strawmen and yet falsely attribute propositions to SVs.

    You can CLAIM that it's the end result, based on a set of arguments, but you assume the validity of how you've patched it together (incorrectly) in your brain, yet what you've pushed here is ...

    a strawman false dilemma layered on top of several begged questions

    So talk about the mother of all logical fallacies.