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Author Topic: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism  (Read 13325 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2023, 04:53:33 AM »
Here's another good one:


Of course he's trying to appropriate DR's point as a defense of Orthodoxy, but his dismissal of the distinction between potency and act (which he obviously knows nothing about) for him reduces to "imaginary".  This discredits him immediately.

Analogy is that same as between the body and soul.  Souls in Heaven still have it of their essence to have a body, even though they currently lack one.  This then translates into their having "imaginary" bodies?  What an idiot ... but then heresy does that to people.  They have bodies in potency, thought not currently in act.  This does not mean they have "imaginary" bodies.

:facepalm:

Of course, this doesn't address the real distinction between a potentiality and an actuality. Obviously, a potentiality is not an actuality; something that is currently a potentiality is not currently an actuality. The indefectibility of the Church as a body includes the teaching that it would always be a physical or material actuality with a governing hierarchy in every "present" time until Our Lord's return. And a governing hierarchy doesn't require a pope always alive on the seat, so times of sede vacante can't be used as precedent for a situation where there is no ordinary with jurisdiction with a real power of governing who possesses the Catholic faith and is not in schism with an antipope and heresiarchs.

And can't you make a point or argument without tossing off labels like "idiot" (or "heretic" - when addressing some of us fellow Catholics here)? I'd be careful about at whom you toss that particular "idiot" label, as it appears to be a boomerang term for you.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2023, 05:06:45 AM »
The Crisis is rather easily understood if you simply don't insist on putting square pegs in round holes. 


Quote
2 Thessalonians 2

6 And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time.  7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.  8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth . . .

As Cardinal Manning accurately read the Scriptures, the "withholder" of the darkness was the Church/pope/hierarchy. God told us it would be "taken out of the way," and it has been. When it was there during the time God willed it to be there, it was Truth, Light, the restrainer of Darkness, indefectible, infallible in its guidance. IT'S GONE. We were told it would be GONE one day. Behold, this is the day.  

To carry forth the analogy, the peg is no longer of the same dimensions as the hole . . . as revealed and promised. Don't try to fit what won't fit. 

Have eyes and ears, and see and hear. 



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2023, 05:24:22 AM »
The Crisis is rather easily understood if you simply don't insist on putting square pegs in round holes.


As Cardinal Manning accurately read the Scriptures, the "withholder" of the darkness was the Church/pope/hierarchy. God told us it would be "taken out of the way," and it has been. When it was there during the time God willed it to be there, it was Truth, Light, the restrainer of Darkness, indefectible, infallible in its guidance. IT'S GONE. We were told it would be GONE one day. Behold, this is the day.

To carry forth the analogy, the peg is no longer of the same dimensions as the hole . . . as revealed and promised. Don't try to fit what won't fit.

Have eyes and ears, and see and hear.

Or rather, the Holy Ghost in and working through the Church/pope/hierarchy - the soul united with the spiritually living body. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2023, 05:42:47 AM »
The Crisis is rather easily understood if you simply don't insist on putting square pegs in round holes.


As Cardinal Manning accurately read the Scriptures, the "withholder" of the darkness was the Church/pope/hierarchy. God told us it would be "taken out of the way," and it has been. When it was there during the time God willed it to be there, it was Truth, Light, the restrainer of Darkness, indefectible, infallible in its guidance. IT'S GONE. We were told it would be GONE one day. Behold, this is the day.

To carry forth the analogy, the peg is no longer of the same dimensions as the hole . . . as revealed and promised. Don't try to fit what won't fit.

Have eyes and ears, and see and hear.

And this is why Pontrello himself is wrong and in error for rejecting the Catholic Church as a result of, or in light of, the present crisis. He sees the contradiction between the Church at present and what was said about her - infallible, indefectible, etc. - and therefore rejects the Catholic Church and her claims as false - since they no longer hold true. But, again, God said a time would come when they would not hold true: the abomination of desolation would stand "in the holy place."

In light of God's word, it is a false move to insist, or have an understanding, of the Church or the "holy place" as one that would never have defect, or, as Scripture says, have an abomination in it. God says otherwise. 

Pontrello is essentially rejecting the "holy place" (the Catholic Church) because it fulfills the Word of God by having an abomination stand within it. Say what??????

The "holy place" was indeed "holy" before the standing of the abomination in it, thus the designation "holy." 

Now, he can argue that at various times the Catholic Church departed from truth on various doctrinal points, but that's a different argument than one that the Catholic Church is in contradiction to the word of God by its present state of being overrun by the Conciliar heresies. Such a present state would, as stated, be in accordance with what God said and predicted. 


Online Ladislaus

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Re: The Impossibility of Sedevacantism
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2023, 07:03:56 AM »
And this is why Pontrello himself is wrong and in error for rejecting the Catholic Church as a result of, or in light of, the present crisis. He sees the contradiction between the Church at present and what was said about her - infallible, indefectible, etc. - and therefore rejects the Catholic Church and her claims as false - since they no longer hold true. But, again, God said a time would come when they would not hold true: the abomination of desolation would stand "in the holy place."

In light of God's word, it is a false move to insist, or have an understanding, of the Church or the "holy place" as one that would never have defect, or, as Scripture says, have an abomination in it. God says otherwise.

Pontrello is essentially rejecting the "holy place" (the Catholic Church) because it fulfills the Word of God by having an abomination stand within it. Say what??????

The "holy place" was indeed "holy" before the standing of the abomination in it, thus the designation "holy."

Now, he can argue that at various times the Catholic Church departed from truth on various doctrinal points, but that's a different argument than one that the Catholic Church is in contradiction to the word of God by its present state of being overrun by the Conciliar heresies. Such a present state would, as stated, be in accordance with what God said and predicted.


From what I can tell, Pontrello started his journey into heresy by falsely claiming that Pius IX taught salvation by invincible ignorance.  I actually knew a guy, a sedevacantist, who decided that Pius IX was a non-pope for this same (misinterpretation of his) teaching.  That's what actually gave me pause about dogmatic sedevacantism and led me ultimately toward sedeprivationism, which finds the right balance between a heretic being disqualified from papal office and the need for the intervention of Church authority.  In any case, though, Pontrello took it to the next step, rejecting papal infallibility, and then ended up in Eastern Orthodoxy.

But, yes, this great apostasy has been foretold from the early days of the Church and is to be expected.  If you acknowledge this, and then examine the claims of the Catholic Church to be the True Church of Christ objectively up until the great apostasy time of Vatican II (which was also foretold short term by Our Lady of Fatima), the claims of Eastern Orthodoxy don't stand up.  EO is a joke, where they have fragmented "doctrine", make up stupidity out of thin air like about how people can get divorced 3 times, etc.  And the Patristic evidence is overwhelming in support of the Primacy of the See of St. Peter over the other Sees.  If one objectively examines the evidence, Eastern Orthodoxy is a joke.

Since Pontrello seems to read CathInfo, I appeal to you, John, to put aside your heresy.  You cannot save your soul as Eastern Orthodox.  And what's making it worse is that you're attempting to spread this heresy publicly to others.  Please recant and return to the True Faith established by Our Lord Jesus Christ.