Author Topic: The Holy Catholoic Church has no Members in Mortal Sin (Read 2968 times)

bowler · « **on:** November 07, 2012, 05:44:35 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote
Nishant wrote: Even ordinary mortal sins of course do not put Catholics "outside the Holy Catholic Church",

The Holy Catholic Church is spotless without blemish, it does not contain one member who has mortal sin, just like heaven, or else it would not be Holy. A Catholic in mortal sin is part of the Catholic Church, but he is outside of the Holy Catholic Church, till he confesses his sins, or does a perfect act of contrition.

Quote from: SJB

You are quite mistaken, bowler.

Quote from: Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

23. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. it is owing to the Savior's infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet. [20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.

Like I said, the Holy Catholic Church contains no mortal sin, it is spotless, without blemish, it does not contain one member who has mortal sin, just like heaven, or else it would not be Holy. A Catholic in mortal sin is part of the Catholic Church (of the Body of the Church), but he is outside of the Holy Catholic Church, till he confesses his sins, or does a perfect act of contrition. Two different descriptions of the Church. We should not confuse the two, a common error of our times.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2012, 07:23:56 PM »

So, I'm not the shapest tack, but this sure sounds like something you've just pulled out of your own head. How about finding us a source for this if it's such a common error?

SJB · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2012, 08:18:46 PM »

Our friend "bowler" directly contradicts Mystici Corporis, where Pope Pius XII defines membership in the Church.

Nishant · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2012, 08:27:07 PM »

Just as Our Savior, the spotless Lamb of God, for our sake bore in His corporal body our sins, so also He bears it even now in His Mystical body, the Church, in both cases, Christ and the Church alike, remaining spotless.

Quo Vadis Petre · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2012, 08:33:33 PM »

The living who are in mortal sin are members of the Church, even if dead to grace. Once they die, they still bear the mark of being once Catholics, that would redound to their eternal damnation, being lowest in hell. I think this is what happens when laypeople and priests not learned enough in theology try to be armchair theologians.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2012, 08:43:34 PM »

Quote from: bowler

A Catholic in mortal sin is part of the Catholic Church (of the Body of the Church), but he is outside of the Holy Catholic Church, till he confesses his sins, or does a perfect act of contrition. Two different descriptions of the Church. We should not confuse the two, a common error of our times.

So is this the "subsists"-but-"is-not" sort of ecclesiological dichotomy that the modernists have devised in their Œconomia nova.

Gee, another error of John Hus revived, and yet another disturbing echo of the new economy of salvation proposed by the modernists!

Quote

"One and holy is the holy universal Church which is the aggregate of the predestined."

Quote

"The grace of predestination is a chain by which the body of the Church and any member of it are joined insolubly to Christ the Head."

The first and twenty-first propositions of Hus (Denzinger, nos. 627, 647) condemned by the Œcuмenical Council of Constance (Session XV, 6 July 1415) and by Pope Martin V in the Bulls Inter cunctas and In eminentis (22 February 1418).

Is anyone else seeing a pattern here?

Matthew · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2012, 11:33:16 PM »

Bowler, you're wrong. Period.

Several members have given detailed correction of your error, so I won't repeat it here.

I will only point out that uneducated laymen should NOT try to be theologians, especially not with the aim of teaching others. And no, just because you've "exercised your brain" by reading a few articles, or even a few books, does NOT make you a theologian.

It only makes you a proverbial "armchair theologian".

bowler · « **Reply #7 on:** November 08, 2012, 09:50:04 AM »

All of you are repeating the same mistake which I corrected and thought I made clear:

"Like I said, the Holy Catholic Church contains no mortal sin, it is the sinless Church, spotless, without blemish, it does not contain one member who has mortal sin, just like heaven, or else it would not be Holy.

A Catholic in mortal sin is a member of, a part of the Catholic Church, a member of the Body of the Church, a member of the Body of Christ , BUT he is outside of the Holy Catholic Church, till he confesses his sins, or does a perfect act of contrition. These are two different descriptions of the Church. We should not confuse the two, a common error of our times."

Abbot Marmion called her "the holy and invisible society of the souls that share by grace in Christ's Divine Sonship and form the Kingdom He won by His Blood". That is the Church to which people in a state of mortal sin do not belong. (Mortal sinners can cleanse themselves of their iniquities by the sacrament of penance and return to the sinless Church).
____________________________________________________

Christ the Life of the Soul, by Abbot D Columba Marmion 1925

Chapter 5- THE CHURCH, THE MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST (pg 93)

to procure this glory is the Church. Christ comes on earth to create and constitute the Church; it is the work to which all His existence converges, and He confirms it by His Passion and Death. His love for His Father led Jesus Christ to the mountain of Calvary but it was there to form the Church, and make of her, by purifying her in His Divine Blood, a spotless and immaculate Bride: Dilexit Ecclesiam et seipsum tradidit pro ea ut illam sanctificaret (Ephes 5:25-26).

This is what St. Paul tells us. Let us then see what this Church is, of which the name occurs so often under the great Apostle's pen as to be inseparable from that of Christ.

We may consider the Church in two ways: first as a visible, hierarchical society, founded by Christ to continue His sanctifying mission here below; she appears thus, as a living organism. But this point of view is not the only one; to have a complete idea of the Church, we must regard her, as the holy and invisible society of the souls that share by grace in Christ's Divine Sonship, and form the Kingdom He won by His Blood. That is what St. Paul calls the body of Christ, not of course, His physical body, but His mystical body. It is on this second point of view we shall principally dwell: we must not, however, pass over the first in silence.

It is true that the invisible Church, or the soul of the Church, is more important than the visible Church, but, in the normal economy of Christianity, it is only by union with the visible society that souls have participation in the possessions and privileges of the invisible kingdom of Christ. END

______________________________________________________

Today the modernists focus totally on the "sinful" Church, so much so, that few know that the Church is Holy, Spotless, and without blemish, and contains not one spot (not one person in the state of mortal sin).

Today the modernists focus totally on the "sinful" Church, so much so, that few know that the Church is Holy, Spotless, and without blemish, and contains not one spot (not one person in the state of mortal sin).

To belong to the invisible Church of the sinless, one must first be a member of the visible Church, the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as an invisible church of believers of all creeds, as the Protestants and modernists teach.

RomanCatholic1953 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2012, 09:56:21 AM »

Capt McQuigg · « **Reply #9 on:** November 08, 2012, 10:04:14 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Our friend "bowler" directly contradicts Mystici Corporis, where Pope Pius XII defines membership in the Church.

Piux XII???

Anything prior to that?

Quo Vadis Petre · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2012, 10:16:17 AM »

A popular book for laypeople and religious hardly constitutes dogmatic theology. And I believe the use of "invisible" and "visible" Church was unfortunate, since it was used by Protestants as well to designate 2 Churches. We all know only one Church. It would have been better to say Church Militant (which all belong, those w/o mortal sin and those w/ mortal sin) and the Church Triumphant (all in heaven). After all, those in the state of grace on Earth are still NOT the Church Triumphant, but Church Militant.

bowler · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2012, 11:14:25 AM »

Moderator:

Would you be so kind as to fix the title of the thread to say Catholic.

Nishant · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2012, 12:02:54 PM »

No, what you are saying is utter madness.

The Church comprises the good and the bad alike, the wheat and the tares grow together in the field until the day of judgment. Both are within the Church, not outside her.

Just like our sins being laid upon Christ do not make Him a sinner, likewise, the Church does not cease to be by spotless.

Here is the Catechism of Trent.

Quote from: Roman Catechism

The Church militant is composed of two classes of persons, the good and the bad, both professing the same faith and partaking of the same Sacraments, yet differing in their manner of life and morality.

The good are those who are linked together not only by the profession of the same faith, and the participation of the same Sacraments, but also by the spirit of grace and the bond of charity. Of these St. Paul says: The Lord knoweth who are his. Who they are that compose this class we also may remotely conjecture, but we can by no means pronounce with certainty. Hence Christ the Saviour does not speak of this portion of His Church when He refers us to the Church and commands us to hear and to obey her. As this part of the Church is unknown, how could we ascertain with certainty whose decision to recur to, whose authority to obey?

The Church, therefore, as the Scriptures and the writings of the Saints testify, includes within her fold the good and the bad; and it was in this sense that St. Paul spoke of one body and one spirit. Thus understood, the Church is known and is compared to a city built on a mountain, and visible from every side. As all must yield obedience to her authority, it is necessary that she may�be known by all.

That the Church is composed of the good and the bad we learn from many parables contained in the Gospel. Thus, the kingdom of heaven, that is, the Church militant, is compared to a net cast into the sea, to a field in which tares were sown with the good grain, to a threshing floor on which the grain is mixed up with the chaff, and also to ten virgins, some of whom were wise, and some foolish. And long before, we trace a figure and resemblance of this Church in the ark of Noah, which contained not only clean, but also unclean animals.

But although the Catholic faith uniformly and truly teaches that the good and the bad belong to the Church, yet the same faith declares that the condition of both is very different. The wicked are contained in the Church, as the chaff is mingled with the grain on the threshing floor, or as dead members sometimes remain attached to a living body.

Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.

But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.

Quote from: Capt.Mcquigg

Piux XII???

Anything prior to that?

For the record, the Holy Father is only confirming here the teaching of St.Robert Bellarmine, other most pious Doctors and learned ecclesiologists in Mystici Corporis Christi, but I'm curious:

Why, is his teaching doubtful? On what basis then do you believe the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary is a dogma?

I find it remarkable that a Pope who spoke and wrote with the theological precision and doctrinal exactitude of Pope Pius XII is subjected to such criticism by those who themselves are, to be charitable, blissfully unaware of basic Catholic teaching. This entirely unreasonable attitude of lay Catholics completely overthrows the faith and weakens the basis on which Catholics believe in several traditional doctrines as well as a dogma.

It's as Hobbledehoy stated,

Quote from: Hobbledehoy

Gee, another error of John Hus revived, and yet another disturbing echo of the new economy of salvation proposed by the modernists!

Is anyone else seeing a pattern here?

bowler · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2012, 12:58:01 PM »

Dear Nishant,

Once more you make the same mistake as all the others, and what you posted is not talking about the Holy Catholic Church, the sinless bride of Christ.

Quote

All of you are repeating the same mistake which I corrected and thought I made clear:

"Like I said, the Holy Catholic Church contains no mortal sin, it is the sinless Church, spotless, without blemish, it does not contain one member who has mortal sin, just like heaven, or else it would not be Holy.

A Catholic in mortal sin is a member of, a part of the Catholic Church, a member of the Body of the Church, a member of the Body of Christ , BUT he is outside of the Holy Catholic Church (he is not a member of the sinless Church), till he confesses his sins, or does a perfect act of contrition. These are two different descriptions of the Church. We should not confuse the two, a common error of our times."

If the Holy, sinless, immaculate bride Church contained a sinner, it would not be Holy, sinless, immaculate. If you want to learn more, you'll have to study (outside of the "internet blips") the subject of the Holy, sinless, immaculate bride, Church, and how it could be called Holy if it contains sinners.

Read what Marmion is saying, two different concepts of Church. All of you are talking about one and I about another. You started this when you said Holy Catholic Church. Had you said Catholic Church, nothing would have happened.

bowler · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2012, 01:22:23 PM »

To break down what Abbot Marmion said:

Quote

We may consider the Church in two ways:

1) first as a visible, hierarchical society, founded by Christ to continue His sanctifying mission here below; she appears thus, as a living organism.
But this point of view is not the only one; to have a complete idea of the Church,

2) we must regard her, as the holy and invisible society of the souls that share by grace in Christ's Divine Sonship, and form the Kingdom He won by His Blood. That is what St. Paul calls the body of Christ, not of course, His physical body, but His mystical body.

It is on this second point of view we shall principally dwell:
It is true that the invisible Church, or the soul of the Church, is more important than the visible Church, but, in the normal economy of Christianity, it is only by union with the visible society that souls have participation in the possessions and privileges of the invisible kingdom of Christ

Now, remember that this is written about 20 years before Pius XII wrote Mystici Corporis (Abbot Marmion was about 20 years older than Pius XII), so the terms today are used differently. However, the important part is that there are two ways to consider the Church, one the visible society contains all baptized Catholics, the other, is the holy and invisible society of the souls. That is the spotless bride, the sinless Church, the Holy Church.