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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 73633 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #325 on: January 14, 2018, 03:06:40 PM »
Father Hesse makes a good case for the Vll not being a Council of the Church. If you want to learn something, I suggest that you watch it.
I just finished watching it - that was a very informative video, I liked the way fr. Hesse compared Ecuмenical Councils to the sacraments, then bought V2 into the mix for the rest of the video - I liked his whole explanation. He hit on a lot of pertinent subjects. Good stuff!
     

Offline Meg

Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #326 on: January 14, 2018, 03:23:08 PM »
I just finished watching it - that was a very informative video, I liked the way fr. Hesse compared Ecuмenical Councils to the sacraments, then bought V2 into the mix for the rest of the video - I liked his whole explanation. He hit on a lot of pertinent subjects. Good stuff!
    

Yes, I agree. He gave a good background as to why the Vll Council was not a Council of the Church. He backed it up with good explanations. Even though English is not his first language, he is fairly easy to understand.

I like his explanation at about the 37:00 minute mark. He says:

"There's no reason here to name all of the heresies that have been fought more or less successfully by the Councils, but that was the common intention, ever, and always, for calling a Council.

John XXlll wanted the contrary - 'We shall not condemn anything, we shall not pronounce a dogmas here,' so what actually happens was the same thing that would happen if I approach the altar to celebrate Mass. I tell John, "listen John, I'm gonna do everything that's required to celebrate Mass, but I've absolutely no intention of celebrating Mass. I want to pull a show." Now John would be the only one in that case to know that what happened here is not a Mass. That's how it's possible that something that looks as much as a Council as Vatican ll did, might not have necessarily have been a Council, as if fraud was a new thing.

I don't think there's much to add. We can clearly see that John XXlll as the first pope in the history of the Church had a contradictory intention of calling an Ecuмenical Council, and at the same time, not to condemn errors, and not to define doctrine."


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #327 on: January 14, 2018, 03:23:30 PM »
Lad being formally Fentonized, ...

You're being incredibly dishonest as usual, Stubborn.  You know full well that I disagree with Fenton on a number of key issues (soteriology and ecclesiology in particular); you've been on those threads.  I quote Fenton simply because he has a very articulate and Catholic explanation regarding the non-infallible Magisterium.  I am not a slavish Fenton follower.  In fact, I came to my views of ecclesiology after having read not only the Church Fathers but a wide array of theologians regarding ecclesiology.  I was straight R&R before I knew any better.  Then I came to the conclusion that I would have been burned at the stake for these views had I lived at the time of St. Robert Bellarmine.  That happened to a number of young men who went to Traditional seminary.  Once they started studying Traditional Catholic dogmatic theology, especially the theology regarding the Church and the Magisterium, they found that the R&R position was simply not consistent with this.

I could turn around and talk about you and Meg having become Hesse-ized as well.  Puerile ad hominems neither accomplish nor prove anything.


Online Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #328 on: January 14, 2018, 03:23:38 PM »
I've not herd of Fr. Fenton before this. It would seem that Fr. Fenton believes that the magisterium cannot err in large matters, but even if it does, it's not a big deal, and the faithful are not to be held accountable because it's the fault of those who issued the false teaching (if I understand this correctly). But you're right - since Our Lord warned us to beware of false teachings, then we may indeed be held accountable, especially these days, when we have access to true Church teachings.
Fr. Fenton is one of those "well respected" 20th century theologians that I've mentioned in the past. 70 or 80 years ago, he was one of the USA's most well respected of theologians whose teachings (as Lad's post shows) helped otherwise faithful Catholics abandon their true faith altogether and / or embrace the new faith of V2.


Quote
Msgr. Fenton on the "negative infallibility" of the Church in Her ordinary teachings:
(The Doctrinal Authority of Papal Encyclicals, Msgr Joseph Fenton,  American Ecclesiastical Review, Vol. CXXI, August, 1949, pp. 136-150)

To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
If one is convinced of this - as billions were and as Lad demonstrates still are, then V2 cannot harm anyone and there is no crisis - which makes the whole of sedeism and trads overall, at least a colossal farce.


Online Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #329 on: January 14, 2018, 03:26:52 PM »
Yes, I agree. He gave a good background as to why the Vll Council was not a Council of the Church. He backed it up with good explanations. Even though English is not his first language, he is fairly easy to understand.

I like his explanation at about the 37:00 minute mark. He says:

"There's no reason here to name all of the heresies that have been fought more or less successfully by the Councils, but that was the common intention, ever, and always, for calling a Council.

John XXlll wanted the contrary - 'We shall not condemn anything, we shall not pronounce a dogmas here,' so what actually happens was the same thing that would happen if I approach the altar to celebrate Mass. I tell John, "listen John, I'm gonna do everything that's required to celebrate Mass, but I've absolutely no intention of celebrating Mass. I want to pull a show." Now John would be the only one in that case to know that what happened here is not a Mass. That's how it's possible that something that looks as much as a Council as Vatican ll did, might not have necessarily have been a Council, as if fraud was a new thing.

I don't think there's much to add. We can clearly see that John XXlll as the first pope in the history of the Church had a contradictory intention of calling an Ecuмenical Council, and at the same time, not to condemn errors, and not to define doctrine."
Yes, great quote! He had so many good points that we could post dozens of his quotes.