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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 30535 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #300 on: January 11, 2018, 08:50:55 PM »
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    How does anyone know what the "degree" of a council is?

    Neil said:  but the Catholic way of demanding the religious assent of faith is dogmatic definition, of which Vat.II contained nothing

    EXACTLY!  As you stated, V2 was the first non-dogmatic, pastoral, ecuмenical council in history.  That is evidence right there that it should be viewed "differently", but many don't have an explanation for this difference, and it doesn't fit their theory, so they ignore it.  


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    It seems to me that Vat.II fails 1, 2 and 4, not just 1.
    In the interest of making a point about the lack of clarity and obligation to obey V2's "decrees which decree nothing", I conceded 2 and 4.  But I agree that 2 and 4 are debatable and not 100% certain.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #301 on: January 11, 2018, 09:00:23 PM »
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    It's going to take a new Council to declare Vat.II "different" from the previous 19, and therefore abrogated.
    Neil, another great point.  I agree that it's not my place to say that V2 is abrogated or invalid.  However, as the 'council fathers' and many theologians have admitted in the past 50 years that it IS DIFFERENT than other ecuмenical councils, (as I've shown by many quotes) we don't have to wait for a future council to  tell us that our 'religious submission' should have MUCH caution attached to it.  

    These are not my words, but those of the V2 magisterium itself!
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #302 on: January 12, 2018, 04:51:56 PM »
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    • Fr. Hesse explains why Vatican II is Not A Council of the Church



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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #303 on: January 12, 2018, 05:22:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora on January 12, 2018, 04:51:56 PM
    Fr. Hesse explains why Vatican II is Not A Council of the Church

    Only way V2 could not be a "Council of the Church" is if Paul VI had not been a legitimate pope.  Period.  There's no other answer.  Any other explanation is just ridiculous mental gymnastics to serve the R&R agenda ... and a waste of everyone's time.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #304 on: January 12, 2018, 06:25:49 PM »
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    • CathInfo readers can listen to the opinion of a canon lawyer and doctor of Thomistic theology or to the opinion of a professional blogger who wants to be one on CathInfo.

    For those who are not familiar with Fr. Hesse, there are many informative videos on you tube. Highly recommended.
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    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #305 on: January 12, 2018, 09:29:34 PM »
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    • By the way Ladislaus, I am another, along with Pax Vobis, Stubborn, and others, that recognize the important truth that dogma is the proximate rule of faith.  So I have a question for you.  Since you have agreed in earlier posts that Sacred Scripture and Tradition are the remote rule of faith, how can this be since both are products of the Magisterium which was made up of St. Peter and the Apostles?  Shouldn't you just say the Magisterium is the remote rule of faith and drop this reference to Scripture and Tradition all together?  If the fruit of the Magisterium (Scripture and Tradition) is the remote rule of faith, why isn't the proximate rule of faith the fruit of the Magisterium (dogma)?  
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    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #306 on: January 13, 2018, 06:58:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora on January 12, 2018, 06:25:49 PM
    CathInfo readers can listen to the opinion of a canon lawyer and doctor of Thomistic theology or to the opinion of a professional blogger who wants to be one on CathInfo.

    For those who are not familiar with Fr. Hesse, there are many informative videos on you tube. Highly recommended.
    When I started to research the Crisis about 5 years ago, I watched Fr Hesse's videos (and took copious notes).  Unfortunately, I remember thinking after mulling it over that his explanation didn't make sense to me.  Something was off.  At this point, I don't remember what it was that made me think that (maybe Ladislaus can chime in here to help me recall), but it was clear to me that I could not agree with his ideas.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #307 on: January 13, 2018, 09:32:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora on January 12, 2018, 09:29:34 PM
    how can this be since both are products of the Magisterium which was made up of St. Peter and the Apostles?

    No they're not.  Sacred Scripture is directly inspired and Tradition is that which was revealed by Our Lord TO the Apostles.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #308 on: January 13, 2018, 09:34:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora on January 12, 2018, 09:29:34 PM
    By the way Ladislaus, I am another, along with Pax Vobis, Stubborn, and others, that recognize the important truth that dogma is the proximate rule of faith.

    You promote this false thesis simply because it helps you justify your stance that this abstract dogma trumps the Magisterium and so you can disregard the Magisterium when it doesn't line up with "dogma".
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #309 on: January 13, 2018, 09:59:45 AM »
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    • Father Hesse has been a good guide and blessing to the Catholic remnant.

    He admittedly doesn't have all the answers, but being brilliant and educated in Rome, he knows where to find them.

    He describes the Council and the new mass as schismatic.  That's what we need to know.

    Vatican II's theology is not Catholic and fit's Pope Leo XIII's St Michael's prayer warning:  

    "... These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of the Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be..."

    Vatican II was the de facto Pope's official: "raising of the throne of their abominable impiety".

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #310 on: January 13, 2018, 10:35:01 AM »
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    • The Catholic Church gave us a SCHISMATIC Council?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #311 on: January 13, 2018, 11:32:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora on January 12, 2018, 04:51:56 PM

    Fr. Hesse explains why Vatican II is Not A Council of the Church




    I've only watched the first six minutes of the video, but there's a lot of good info in just that much of the video. Father Hesse explains that the first eight Ecuмenical Councils were not called by popes at all - but they were called by Emperors, and that the Pope didn't attend two of them. The second Ecuмenical Council in the year 381 (called by an Emperor, and which the pope did not attend), was not approved until the sixth century.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #312 on: January 13, 2018, 11:48:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 13, 2018, 11:32:05 AM

    I've only watched the first six minutes of the video, but there's a lot of good info in just that much of the video. Father Hesse explains that the first eight Ecuмenical Councils were not called by popes at all - but they were called by Emperors, and that the Pope didn't attend two of them. The second Ecuмenical Council in the year 381 (called by an Emperor, and which the pope did not attend), was not approved until the sixth century.

    That is quite irrelevant. The Councils are binding and consider Ecuмenical not because the pope convokes them or attends them but because (and when) he (or a later successor of St. Peter) ratifies them, even if it is done at much later time, such as Constantinople I.

    Paul VI already ratified Vatican II Council.  

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #313 on: January 13, 2018, 11:52:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on January 13, 2018, 11:48:23 AM
    That is quite irrelevant. The Councils are binding not because the pope convokes them or attends them but because (and when) he ratifies them, even if it is done at much later time, as Constantinople I.

    Paul VI already ratified Vatican II Council.  

    Irrelevant to you, Cantarella, which doesn't mean much to me. I'll take Fr. Hesse's view any day, over that of a layman. 

    There's more to the video, which I will watch. Father isn't just basing his view on the fact that the first eight councils weren't even called by a pope. There's more to it than that. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #314 on: January 13, 2018, 03:40:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 13, 2018, 11:52:44 AM
    Irrelevant to you, Cantarella, which doesn't mean much to me. I'll take Fr. Hesse's view any day, over that of a layman.

    There's more to the video, which I will watch. Father isn't just basing his view on the fact that the first eight councils weren't even called by a pope. There's more to it than that.

    Hah, you'll take any view that agrees with your own.  You've already demonstrated that time and again.  You admit having watched only a few minutes of the video but already "take" his view.  Would be funny if about 30 minutes in he denounces flat earthers.  Since you take his view over that of a layman, why don't you ask him what he believes about the flat earth, and if he rejects it, you need to follow his lead ... since you should take his view over yours.  Hypocrite.

    Cantarella is absolutely correct the papal ratification is what defines an Ecuмenical Council.
      
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