Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 74022 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #285 on: January 11, 2018, 12:45:33 PM »
Quote
It is not the precise narrative that makes the decrees binding;
V1 says you're wrong.

Quote
it is the papal promulgation of them in a setting of a General Council.
Yes, if the narrative is precise enough to warrant more than a 'religious assent', which is conditional.

Quote
Catholics are not supposed to scrutinize every detail of the council docuмents trying to identify what parts are binding and what parts are not.
We don't have to srutinize every detail because USUALLY council docuмents are quite clear, short and to the point.  It is plainly obvious that a 4th grader, with a general understanding of the english language, can recognize when the Church is teaching authoritatively and when She's not.

Quote
We are supposed to give religious asent to whatever is proposed in a ecunemical Council ratified by a pope, trusting that it is for our own benefit.
'Religious assent' is conditional.  It is not blind trust.  

Quote
You can't pick and choose.
The catechism is a summary of our Faith; it can be understood by children.  When V2 says something different than the catechism, that should send 'alarm bells' off in our heads.  We have a brain, we have a conscience - we are supposed to USE IT.

It is not 'picking and choosing' (unless you erroneously think that EVERY sentence in a council is binding, in some generalized, inspecific way) to compare one's catechism to a view that appears new.  You act like the Faith is rocket science.  IT'S ALL THERE IN THE CATECHISM.  It will never change, be added to, or subtracted from.  It's the same as it was in Christ's time.  THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN CATHOLICISM.  So when V2 comes along with something new, and doesn't teach it officially or clearly, the simpliest, most logical answer is that IT'S WRONG because it contradicts the catechism, and something wrong can't come from the Church.

The answer is not some complex, canon law interpretation, personal authority nonsense, whereby since a council can CREATE and CHANGE Church doctrine, therefore there's not a pope.  That's circular logic.  The simpliest answer is not that Paul VI was not the pope; it is that the council was not an ecuмenical council in the same degree as all previous ones.  This view requires much less canon-law acrobatics, is consistent with V1, and is supported by the council's own docuмents AND all the opinions of the post-V2 hierarchy, who all say that V2 was not binding but only requires 'conditional/religious assent'  (which, by the way, contradicts the assertion that God will not allow the laity to be led into error if they submit to a general council...the magisterium which CREATED the council said it was not binding and must be interpreted according to tradition).  So, again, more contradictions!

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #286 on: January 11, 2018, 01:02:58 PM »
Quote
We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful,

little more needs to be demonstrated


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #287 on: January 11, 2018, 01:09:02 PM »
Sorry, Pax, but you keep relying upon the strict limits of infallibility but then have no concept whatsoever regarding the overall indefectibility of the Magisterium.  If an Ecuмenical Council, guided by the Holy Ghost, could produce a body of doctrine so harmful to faith that it forces Catholics to break submission with the hierarchy rather than assent to them, then the Magisterium would have defected.

One of the (accidental) harms that people noticed from the Vatican I definition was precisely this notion of yours that everything which didn't have the notes of infallibility as defined by Vatican I became "take it or leave it" (your words).  This was never taught by Vatican I  but was wrongly inferred by people who think as you do.  That is completely alien to any true sensus Catholicus.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #288 on: January 11, 2018, 01:16:29 PM »
Quote
We decided moreover that all that has been established

What has been established?  What is to be observed?

Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #289 on: January 11, 2018, 01:22:28 PM »
What is a dogmatic Decree?
 
A dogmatic decree is an ex cathedra definition, it is final. They must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, no one need to re-interpret dogma for it is THE final “interpretation”.
 
All those who are inclined to qualify or interpret dogma should have the good sense to realize that if this is not what the words of the definitions mean, the Church (the Holy Ghost) would never have promulgated such a position. To give any other meaning to these words is to portray the Church as foolish and ridiculous.  
 

Vatican II is nowhere clear, volumes and volumes of  pages that need interpretation. This by itself should tell anyone with eyes to see, that Vatican II is not of God.