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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 62029 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #225 on: January 08, 2018, 08:15:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: drew on January 08, 2018, 07:54:26 PM
    Like Ockham’s razor, this is very neat oversimplification trying drive a wedge between necessary elements of the virtue of faith.

    If the Rule of Faith only answered why we believe, then Scripture and Tradition, the remote rule of faith, would have nothing to say to the question of what. This is obviously mindless proposal. But, since faith is believing what God has revealed on the authority of God (why), the revealer, the rule of faith necessarily answers both the questions, why and what. What a Catholic believes and why a Catholic believes it are both attributes of the virtue of Faith. If you drive a wedge between these attributes, the faith is lost. The rule of faith must necessarily address both questions and it does so in both the remote and proximate rules.

    When the pope employing the teaching office of the Church engages the Church’s attribute of infallibility it is affirmed that God is the revealer answering both the questions of what and why. Such as in Vatican I Pastor Aeternus, on papal infallibility: “Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, for the glory of God Our Savior, the exaltation of the Catholic Religion, and the salvation of Christian people, the Sacred Council approving, We teach and define that it is a divinely-revealed dogma…”.  

    Your oversimplification makes the pope the revealer.  The pope is the necessary but insufficient material and efficient cause of Dogma.  God is the formal and final cause.  Dogma is the proximate rule of faith.  

    Drew

    Dogmas become such because the Church defines or proposes them as revealed Truths by God that we are bound to believe in order to maintain the unity of Faith and not fall into heresy. The Church (Magisterium) is the proximate rule of Faith. This is, the teaching Church continuing to the end of time:  The whole body of the episcopate, whether scattered throughout the world or collected in an ecuмenical Council IN UNION with the Vicar of Christ, the Pope, the legitimate successor of St. Peter.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #226 on: January 08, 2018, 09:56:50 PM »
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    Dogmas become such because the Church defines or proposes them as revealed Truths by God that we are boundto believe in order to maintain the unity of Faith and not fall into heresy. 
    Did the Church believe in the infallibility of the pope before V1? Yes or no?

    If yes, then this proves that doctrine PRECEEDS the Church's existence and is the rule of faith.  The Church's role is to re-teach what Christ ALREADY taught the Apostles.  

    If no, then that means that the Church can change, be added to or subtracted from, since Catholics have to believe different things depending on the date.  (This can't be).

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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #227 on: January 08, 2018, 10:39:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 08, 2018, 09:56:50 PM
    Did the Church believe in the infallibility of the pope before V1? Yes or no?

    If yes, then this proves that doctrine PRECEEDS the Church's existence and is the rule of faith.  The Church's role is to re-teach what Christ ALREADY taught the Apostles.  

    The infallibility of the pope had always been a truth, even before the Church definition. No, it is not that doctrine PRECEDES the Church existence. I think you mean Divine Revelation. Revealed truths by God precede the Church existence. The Church then formulates the dogmas based upon such truths, which are immutable in existence and MUST be directly connected to Divine Revelation, thus novelties are excluded. After the Church defines a dogma, then the faithful is obliged to believe in the veracity of it; if they do not, then they compromise the unity of the Faith separating themselves from the Church through heresy and incur in anathemas; but even before the dogmatic definitions occur, we are still bound to believe the revealed truths proposed by the Magisterium (Scripture / Tradition).

    Revealed truths -> Church -> Dogmas
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #228 on: January 09, 2018, 04:30:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on January 08, 2018, 08:15:51 PM
    Dogmas become such because the Church defines or proposes them as revealed Truths by God that we are bound to believe in order to maintain the unity of Faith and not fall into heresy. The Church (Magisterium) is the proximate rule of Faith. This is, the teaching Church continuing to the end of time:  The whole body of the episcopate, whether scattered throughout the world or collected in an ecuмenical Council IN UNION with the Vicar of Christ, the Pope, the legitimate successor of St. Peter.
    Cantarella, you are describing what you and the other sedes believe to be the rule of faith.

    If the Magisterium as defined above, is in fact the proximate rule of faith, then all true trads are either in error, or they are in schism. Period. There is no other option.

    There is none of this "false council" stuff or "the Seat is vacant" stuff, nor can there be any possible doubt about the legitimacy or liceity of priests, bishops or popes, NO sacraments, NO teachings, etc., because to do so demonstrates an absolute rejection of the above idea and a complete lack of faith in the idea as a whole.

    If what you posted above is the truth, then there is none of that, in fact, these ideas are not even an option - that is, if what you described above actually is the truth. Further, if this actually is the truth, and if you and the others actually believe it to be the truth yet do not convert into the Novus Ordo and die apart from it, you will all die in schism or at least error.

    If what you described above is actually the truth, there is no way around this.


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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #229 on: January 09, 2018, 08:01:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: drew on January 08, 2018, 07:54:26 PM
    Your oversimplification makes the pope the revealer.

    Ridiculous.  You clearly don't know what you're talking about and need to just stop now.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #230 on: January 09, 2018, 08:02:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2018, 04:30:58 AM
    Cantarella, you are describing what you and the other sedes believe to be the rule of faith.

    Correction.  She is describing what CATHOLICS hold to be the rule of faith.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #231 on: January 09, 2018, 08:04:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2018, 04:30:58 AM
    If the Magisterium as defined above, is in fact the proximate rule of faith, then all true trads are either in error, or they are in schism. Period. There is no other option.

    :facepalm:

    Uhm, except that the Pope(s) who taught these things was/were not legitimate.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #232 on: January 09, 2018, 08:10:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 09, 2018, 08:04:34 AM
    :facepalm:

    Uhm, except that the Pope(s) who taught these things was/were not legitimate.
    :facepalm:


    Uhm, you cannot say that unless you have no faith at all in what you say is the rule of faith.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #233 on: January 09, 2018, 08:11:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2018, 08:10:38 AM
    :facepalm:


    Uhm, you cannot say that unless you have no faith at all in what you say is the rule of faith.

    Logic isn't your strength, is it?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #234 on: January 09, 2018, 08:18:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 09, 2018, 08:11:29 AM
    Logic isn't your strength, is it?
    Reality isn't yours (that's not a question).

    If you believe what you say is the rule of faith, then there is not even the slightest possibility of an illegitimate pope. Simple.

    You do know that sumfin's wrong, but an illegitimate pope cannot be part of your formula. I guess you'll have to keep guessing.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #235 on: January 09, 2018, 08:21:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2018, 08:18:19 AM
    If you believe what you say is the rule of faith, then there is not even the slightest possibility of an illegitimate pope. Simple.

    There are no words.  Stop before you hurt yourself.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #236 on: January 09, 2018, 08:35:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 09, 2018, 08:21:54 AM
    There are no words.  Stop before you hurt yourself.
    Those are the only type of words you ever have, so just keep guessing.

    Try to spell it out for yourself oh wise one.
    In 1962, a "true" pope called together a Council and nearly all the bishops in the world attended - if all councils, in so much as they are an "act of the magisterium" are are infallible, and if the magisterium is the rule of faith and all the bishops in unison with the pope are the magisterium and are infallible when they teach the same thing, then you have no way around it, you are bound to stop all your foolish star gazing and see things as they are - you must convert to that rule you claim to be the rule of faith, you must submit! - either that or you have no faith whatsoever in what you claim to believe.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #237 on: January 09, 2018, 08:55:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2018, 08:35:22 AM
    Try to spell it out for yourself oh wise one.
    In 1962, a "true" pope called together a Council and nearly all the bishops in the world attended ...

    What part of the SV thesis that this wasn't a "true" (aka legitimate) pope don't you understand?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #238 on: January 09, 2018, 09:37:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 09, 2018, 08:55:27 AM
    What part of the SV thesis that this wasn't a "true" (aka legitimate) pope don't you understand?
    I understand the thinking, but not if you're going to stick with Councils are automatically infallible and the idea that "the proximate rule of faith is the magisterium".

    A Council was convened and completed - this actually happened. Dispute it all you like but reality dictates it happened and is therefore indisputable. If all councils are infallible, then you have zero leg to stand on just knowing there actually was a real Council and this council being universal in it's "magisterium", by your definition includes a pope.

    IF the pope was not the pope when it convened, then neither were nearly all the bishops in the world who all preach(ed) the same thing in unison with the pope - - and the whole Catholic world kept the faith for all those decades before V2 without a pope or magisterium, i.e. without any rule of faith at all. So much for it lasting till the end of time.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #239 on: January 09, 2018, 10:02:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 09, 2018, 09:37:38 AM
    I understand the thinking, but not if you're going to stick with Councils are automatically infallible and the idea that "the proximate rule of faith is the magisterium".

    A Council was convened and completed - this actually happened. Dispute it all you like but reality dictates it happened and is therefore indisputable. If all councils are infallible, then you have zero leg to stand on just knowing there actually was a real Council and this council being universal in it's "magisterium", by your definition includes a pope.

    IF the pope was not the pope when it convened, then neither were nearly all the bishops in the world who all preach(ed) the same thing in unison with the pope - - and the whole Catholic world kept the faith for all those decades before V2 without a pope or magisterium, i.e. without any rule of faith at all. So much for it lasting till the end of time.

    You must have missed all the previous citations.  Councils have Ecuмenical status if and only when they're approved by the pope.  No legitimate pope = no Ecuмenical Council.

    As for the gap in time, the Magisterium can go many years without defining anything new ... without it thereby ceasing to be the rule of faith.
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