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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 73622 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #200 on: January 08, 2018, 02:59:48 PM »
Quote
No, but then again, I never said every word is infallible.
Good, but it was a general question not directed specifically to you.

Follow-up question:  If not every word of an ecuмenical council is infallible, how do you know which words are?
This is from the begining of the 7th session.  Is this infallible?  It's talking about faith/morals.
Quote
For the completion of the salutary doctrine on Justification, which was promulgated with the unanimous consent of the Fathers in the last preceding Session, it hath seemed suitable to treat of the most holy Sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is repaired.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #201 on: January 08, 2018, 03:20:36 PM »
Well, Pax, I'm not sure what kind of Church you believe in.  Perhaps you could call it the Church of Stubborn.  But I don't believe in a Church whose Pope and Bishops could gather in Ecuмenical Council and teach to the Church a radically flawed ecclesiology and soteriology that we must reject in order to preserve our faith, and I don't believe in a Church where the Pope could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to our faith.  I don't believe in a Church where we must in conscience reject 50 years of their Magisterium and reject their Universal Discipline in order to save our souls.  It's really that simple.  Do I believe that every single little statement or sentence in every Ecuмenical Council must be regarded as infallible.  No, of course not.  But the whole thing is radically flawed and harmful to faith.  That is not compatible with the indefectibility of the Magisterium and of the Church.

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #202 on: January 08, 2018, 03:21:14 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 08, 2018, 02:59:48 PM
Good, but it was a general question not directed specifically to you.

Follow-up question:  If not every word of an ecuмenical council is infallible, how do you know which words are?
This is from the begining of the 7th session.  Is this infallible?  It's talking about faith/morals.

We're not quibbling about individual sentences, but a completely modernist system of theology based on a false ecclesiology and a false soteriology.  You R&R folks really need to take a step back and catch a glimpse of the forest (of indefectibility) ... which you currently can't see for being lost in the trees (of infallibility).
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #203 on: January 08, 2018, 03:23:44 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 08, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
Well, Pax, I'm not sure what kind of Church you believe in.  Perhaps you could call it the Church of Stubborn.  But I don't believe in a Church whose Pope and Bishops could gather in Ecuмenical Council and teach to the Church a radically flawed ecclesiology and soteriology that we must reject in order to preserve our faith, and I don't believe in a Church where the Pope could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to our faith.  I don't believe in a Church where we must in conscience reject 50 years of their Magisterium and reject their Universal Discipline in order to save our souls.  It's really that simple.  Do I believe that every single little statement or sentence in every Ecuмenical Council must be regarded as infallible.  No, of course not.  But the whole thing is radically flawed and harmful to faith.  That is not compatible with the indefectibility of the Magisterium and of the Church.

In fact, if you had tried to articulate your R&R theses during the time of St. Robert Bellarmine, you would have been burned at the stake.  This sounds exactly like what most of the Prot "reformers" were saying.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #204 on: January 08, 2018, 03:25:38 PM »
Here's a litmus test for when something crosses the line from infallibility into indefectibility:

If I can remain a Catholic in complete submission to the Church and follow her Universal Discipline, then I can simply critique those statements respectfully from within the Church.  If, however, I must refuse submission to the hierarchy that taught these things, then it's crossed the line into indefectibility.
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