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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 61394 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2018, 10:21:44 AM »
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  • Your point is wrong also and we've gone over this before. You don't even believe what you wrote. I have shown before that Vatican II teaches that Religious Liberty is divinely revealed, but in order for your hatred of the Sede position to continue in its irrational state, you must train yourself to overlook this point or explain it away.
    My hatred of the dogmatic sede position is nothing personal, it is due to it's recipients having separated themselves from the successor of St. Peter *FOR NO VALID REASON* and ipso facto have chosen for themselves to have no hope of salvation. Everyone should hate it for that same reason.

    So believe me when I say that if there were any way to change that reality, I would not only over look it, I would change into a dogmatic sede in a hot second.

    The fact that the council taught new doctrines - even while referencing or using old ones to do it - seals the fact that the new doctrines as taught via V2 are in fact fallible This fact makes it indisputable (to those not saturated with dogmatic sedeism) that those new doctrines are not and could not be infallible no matter who taught them - because it is dogma that the Holy Ghost does not protect new doctrines from error - not even in a council.



     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #91 on: January 04, 2018, 10:30:51 AM »
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  • In other words, the Magisterium Hierarchy defected for the first time in history via Ecuмenical Council...
    That the Hierarchy defected is an indisputable reality because it is an historical reality, the Magisterium however, can never defect - BD has it correct in the post above yours:


    The popes on the magisterium....

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    Pope Pius XI, Divini Illius Magistri
    God Himself made the Church a sharer in the divine magisterium and by His divine benefit unable to be mistaken.

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    Pope Pius XI, Divini Illius Magistri
    To this magisterium Christ the Lord imparted immunity from error...

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    Pope Gregory XVI, Commissum Divinitus
    … the Church has, by its divine institution, the power of the magisterium to teach and define matters of faith and morals and to interpret the Holy Scriptures without danger of error.

    Quote
    Quote
    Pope Pius XI, Quas Primas
    … the perfect and perpetual immunity of the Church from error and heresy.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #92 on: January 04, 2018, 10:44:15 AM »
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  • That the Hierarchy defected is an indisputable reality because it is an historical reality, the Magisterium however, can never defect - BD has it correct in the post above yours:

    :facepalm:

    Apart from the fact that it's also heresy to say that the hierarchy has defected (that's actually one of the criticisms against straight sedevacantism), when the hierarchy TEACHES, that is Magisterium.  You've come up with bogus re-definitions of terms to back your non-Catholic perspective on things.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #93 on: January 04, 2018, 10:45:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    Fallible means error, then I choose not to believe it.
    No, fallible does not mean error.  It simply means it does not have a 'certainty of faith'.  Any priest, bishop or cardinal is fallible (every saint was fallible!)- that just means they COULD make a mistake.  But they also could not.  This is why our Faith is not based on MEN; it is based on DOCTRINE.  It is based on a culmination of teachings over 2,000 years, including all infallible statements, and consistent doctrinal teachings.  This is summed up in the catechism, which a 3rd grader can understand.  OUR FAITH IS NOT COMPLICATED.  Ergo, when V2 comes along and teaches something different from the Baltimore catechism, and do so NON-SOLEMNLY, then you reject it. 

    It only becomes complicated when we laymen try to understand it from a technical sense or when any catholic tries to question God's providence and ask 'how could this happen?' or 'Why?'.

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    Both infallible and fallible teaching proposed by the Magisterium should be generally accepted.
    No.  The pope is not an oracle.  The bishops/cardinals, whether inside or outside a council, are not error-free.  Our Faith is based on Christ and HIS teachings, not the teachings of the current men in rome.

    Quote
    What good is the Magisterium if we cannot trust it, if we have to inspect every sentence proposed to us looking for falsehood?  The Catholic Church is known for its clarity and the ability to teach and reach the hearts and intellects to people from all walks of life, both the learned and the unlearned. 
    The situation in which we find ourselves is very unique to Church history.  We have 2,000 years of consistent teachings, with multiple orthodox catechisms, with many learned Saints and Doctors to listen to.  God did not leave us orphans in the Faith, when He allowed the modernists to inflitrate His Church.  He even provided us with 3 saintly popes right in a row (Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X) all of whom fought these same modernists and St Pius X WARNED US sternly that they would come back!  We knew this day would come and we have consistent teachings to compare V2 against.

    The ordinary magisterium (i.e. the hierarchy) has never been thought to have ANY charism of infallibility, which is why when popes spoke of the magisterium in times past, they were speaking of the univeral magisterium, which is the CONSISTENT teachings over the years.  It is only in our last 100 years that modernists have muddied the waters and started talking about the current magisterium as possessing some level of 'doctrinal authority', which is an error.  No single hierarchy has any authority over doctrine because doctrine is Truth, which existed before the earth was even made, since it is part of God's nature.  This is why the infallible magisterium is called 'universal' to denote that it never changes.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #94 on: January 04, 2018, 10:46:33 AM »
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  • Again, you are using the OUM term incorrectly.  The OUM (ordinary and universal magisterium) is the 'continuous' teaching of the church, over the period of 2,000 years.  It is not made up of 1 hierarchy but of ALL the hierarchys.

    Like most R&R do, you're injecting the time element and imply that the entire ordinary teaching of the Church can defect at any given time.  With STRAIGHT ordinary teaching, the universality can be determined from time, but if the entire Church, pope and bishops, teach something even if it's at any given point in time, that cannot be in error.

    What you're talking about are qualifications to the Ordinary Magisterium per se.  What's at issue is what causes the Ordinary Magisterium to assume Universality.  Your allegation, and that of many R&R, is that it's always a function of time.  But the Ordinary Magisterium ALSO takes on the charateristic of universality when the Pope and Bishops teach something in unison at any given point in time.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #95 on: January 04, 2018, 10:46:39 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Apart from the fact that it's also heresy to say that the hierarchy has defected (that's actually one of the criticisms against straight sedevacantism), when the hierarchy TEACHES, that is Magisterium.  You've come up with bogus re-definitions of terms to back your non-Catholic perspective on things.
    I no longer believe you know what reality even is - until you discover it, you may as well remain in your state of sededoubtism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #96 on: January 04, 2018, 10:51:00 AM »
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  • You are trying to make a distinction where there is none. Vatican II has to be an act of the Magisterium. Yes, it appeared to be "hierarchy", but that "hierarchy" included the man you call "pope". A Popes approval of a Council is what makes it binding. You will not find any theologian, saint, Catholic writer etc... before Vatican II that would say that a General Council is not an act of the Magisterium. In fact, I would bet the only people that have said that it is not, are the people who adhere to the novel beliefs of the SSPX/R&R.
    V2 was an act of the pope and hierarchy - that is an indisputable reality which you dispute anyway *for no valid reason at all*.

    If V2 proves anything, it proves that the ideas of theologians who taught many of the things you keep spouting as though they are authoritative teachings of the Church, were false. That is what V2 proves - and indisputably so.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #97 on: January 04, 2018, 10:51:19 AM »
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  • There is no such thing as the "ordinary fallible" or "merely authentic" magisterium...

    These are made up terms by theologians, who are not considered part of the teaching Church.

    The popes have spoken on the issue, and you will not find a pope in the history of the Church referring to the magisterium as capable of teaching error.  

    Yes, these are "terms".  You can quibble about the semantics.  But are there things that a pope can teach that are not infallible?  So, for instance, Pius XII gives an allocution and has it inserted into AAS.  Is it thereby infallible?  If such things exist, then theologians have CALLED these things "merely authentic" Magisterium.  Stop getting hung up on the semantics.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #98 on: January 04, 2018, 10:58:01 AM »
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  • If Ecuмenical Councils are not infallible, then I do not know what is.

    THIS ^^^, Cantarella.  Now, certainly, not every single little isolated statement in a Council is infallible.  But OVERALL, if the teaching of an Ecuмenical Council cannot at least be considered infallibly SAFE, then there's no point in the Magisterium as a proximate rule of faith.

    From Msgr. Fenton on infallible safety (EVEN about Encyclicals, much less Ecuмenical Councils):
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    It might be definitely understood, however, that the Catholic’s duty to accept the teachings conveyed in the encyclicals even when the Holy Father does not propose such teachings as a part of his infallible magisterium is not based merely upon the dicta of the theologians. The authority which imposes this obligation is that of the Roman Pontiff himself. To the Holy Father’s responsibility of caring for the sheep of Christ’s fold, there corresponds, on the part of the Church’s membership, the basic obligation of following his directions, in doctrinal as well as disciplinary matters. In this field, God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth. 
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.

    I believe this also ... as I believe in the holiness and the indefectibility of the Church.  R&R have completely jettisoned this attitude towards the Church and the Magisterium.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #99 on: January 04, 2018, 11:00:38 AM »
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  • You are trying to make a distinction where there is none. Vatican II has to be an act of the Magisterium. Yes, it appeared to be "hierarchy", but that "hierarchy" included the man you call "pope". A Popes approval of a Council is what makes it binding. You will not find any theologian, saint, Catholic writer etc... before Vatican II that would say that a General Council is not an act of the Magisterium. In fact, I would bet the only people that have said that it is not, are the people who adhere to the novel beliefs of the SSPX/R&R.

    This ^^^^
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #100 on: January 04, 2018, 11:01:03 AM »
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  • I spent years trying to defend the indefensible. Believe me, I know what you are coming from. It used to be that Catholics could trust the Magisterium with a child-like confidence. Adherence to the pope was the mark of the Roman Catholic per excellence. Do you really think that the average layman had to be concerned with "precise wording and theological exactness"? We should not have to scrutinize in detail every single Magisterial word, trying to separate what is infallible from that is not; and then deciding on our own what to believe and what not.

    The typical mindset is this: Infallible means truth, then I must believe it. Fallible means error, then I choose not to believe it. That extreme compartmentalization is not right; and the only reason people are doing it after Vatican II is so they end up choosing what to believe. Both infallible and fallible teaching proposed by the Magisterium should be generally accepted. God does not want this from us; otherwise the entire existence of a Magisterium would be utterly pointless. What good is the Magisterium if we cannot trust it, if we have to inspect every sentence proposed to us looking for falsehood?. The Catholic Church is known for its clarity and the ability to teach and reach the hearts and intellects to people from all walks of life, both the learned and the unlearned.

    :applause: .... THIS is the true Catholic attitude.  Of course it's difficult to apply this to the current unprecedented horrific crisis.  But we CAN NEVER LOSE this sensus Catholicus as R&R has.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #101 on: January 04, 2018, 11:04:07 AM »
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  • My hatred of the dogmatic sede position is nothing personal, ...

    And, honestly, at the end of the day, I could hardly care less whether you're a sedevacantist or not.  What I find gravely offensive, and borderline heretical, is your attitude towards the Magisterium.  I urge you to read Cantarella's post over a few times and try to imbibe the Catholic spirit that she conveys.  You have none of that.  And that's what I find so repugnant in your position ... not whether you have concluded that the Holy See is vacant.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #102 on: January 04, 2018, 11:06:03 AM »
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    AES: Never disputed it. What you are disputing is that this is an act of the Magisterium with the approval of the Pope. You have no excuse for denying it.

    Yes, he's redefined Magisterium and created an artificial distinction between hierarchy and Magisterium (that's never been held by any Catholic theologian) in order to serve his dogmatic R&R agenda.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #103 on: January 04, 2018, 11:11:35 AM »
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  • And, honestly, at the end of the day, I could hardly care less whether you're a sedevacantist or not.  What I find gravely offensive, and borderline heretical, is your attitude towards the Magisterium.  I urge you to read Cantarella's post over a few times and try to imbibe the Catholic spirit that she conveys.  You have none of that.  And that's what I find so repugnant in your position ... not whether you have concluded that the Holy See is vacant.
    I could hardly care that you could hardly care. You don't even know what you are talking about when it comes to the magisterium, infallibility and indefectibility. Proof of this is your sededoubtism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #104 on: January 04, 2018, 11:17:14 AM »
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  • True.  After looking over the link he provided earlier and going a little further through the thread, this is exactly what has happened.  It seems to me that Stubborn believes that the magisterium is the Deposit of Faith.

    Obviously, he is free to correct me if I'm wrong.  
    As I said - you must have great faith in the doctrine of infallibility, if you do not, then you believe all the wild ideas, opinions and theories as if they are authoritative Church teachings.

    You yourself just posted in this post from papal teachings that the magisterium is in fact always infallible - do you believe that or do you not?

    If you do, then how on God's green earth can you possibly say that V2 was an act of the magisterium?

    What has become of your faith in the doctrine of infallibility?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse