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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 62031 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2018, 01:16:44 PM »
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  • So, for those who claim that the Magisterium is always infallible, are you claiming that every word that came out of Pius XII's mouth that appeared in AAS is to be regarded as infallible?

    [I'm talking to the SVs here.  Stubborn has redefined Magisterium according to his Magisterium-sifting principles and does not believe in a priori infallibility for anything except solemn definitions].
    For those who do not believe the magisterium is always infallible - (by Magisterium, I mean the Divine, Ordinary and the Universal Magisterium) are you claiming that re: Denz., Jesus Christ instituted a binding magisterium in the Church that can err at all?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #46 on: January 03, 2018, 01:38:30 PM »
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  • "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #47 on: January 03, 2018, 01:45:55 PM »
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    (by Magisterium, I mean the Divine, Ordinary and the Universal Magisterium)
    Stubborn, considering this thread is partially discussing the article where it explains the various levels of the magisterium, then your above definition is only going to cause confusion, since it's correct, but incomplete.  There is a part of the magisterium outside of your definition above.  If you disagree, then you must become a sede because logically, that's where it will lead.  And we all know that won't happen, ha ha.  So, for clarity's sake, please quit talking about the magisterium only in the infallible sense...

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #48 on: January 03, 2018, 01:53:27 PM »
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  • Stubborn, considering this thread is partially discussing the article where it explains the various levels of the magisterium, then your above definition is only going to cause confusion, since it's correct, but incomplete.  There is a part of the magisterium outside of your definition above.  If you disagree, then you must become a sede because logically, that's where it will lead.  And we all know that won't happen, ha ha.  So, for clarity's sake, please quit talking about the magisterium only in the infallible sense...
    We have the Magisterium of the Church which is always infallible, and we have the Church's hierarchy, who are not always infallible and in fact can and have taught heresies. This should be clear.

    The two, as referenced at V1, are not the same thing, but folks keep trying to make them the same thing thereby confusing the two right into sedevacantism or sededoubtism.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #49 on: January 03, 2018, 02:06:35 PM »
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    A pope can exercise the Magisterium in a talk in St. Peters, he can speak infallibly in an Encyclical,

    Of course he can.  If he makes it clear he is doing so, and uses proper language.


    Quote
    and an official Promulagtion by a Pope of a General Council makes it infallible.

    No.  Just as above, outside of solemn infallible declarations (which previous councils had), if the pope is to exercise his 'ordinary and universal' (or Authentic) magisterium, he must 1) make it clear he is speaking authoritatively, 2) that it is binding, 3) it is a matter of faith.  He doesn't have to use the solemn language of "we declare, pronounce and define" but he does have to make it clear that it is binding.

    If he does NOT make it clear that it is binding, it could still be infallible, but it would be so ONLY because it agreed with "what has always been taught".

    The pope at V2 did not use his authority to bind anyone to anything.  BINDING IS A NECESSITY because the pope must put the faithful on alert that they MUST believe this teaching.  An infallible teaching must bind the faithful; if it is not binding, then it's not infallible.  You cannot have one without the other.

    Even though V2 discussed doctrine/faith/morals, it did not do so with a 'certainty of faith' which is the binding factor.  Ergo, no catholic is bound to accept it's docuмents under pain of sin.  Ergo, they aren't infallible.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #50 on: January 03, 2018, 02:12:39 PM »
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    The two, as referenced at V1, are not the same thing, but folks keep trying to make them the same thing thereby confusing the two right into sedevacantism or sededoubtism.
    I agree it is confusing, but when the "folks" who are using these words are theologians and Church officials, we sorta have to accept that one can use the word 'magisterium' in an infallible sense, no matter how confusing we think it is.  We aren't trained to know the difference; they are.  This is their area of expertise, not ours.  We must study so to understand what they are saying, not dumb it down so they speak on our level.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #51 on: January 03, 2018, 02:26:51 PM »
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  • I agree it is confusing, but when the "folks" who are using these words are theologians and Church officials, we sorta have to accept that one can use the word 'magisterium' in an infallible sense, no matter how confusing we think it is.  We aren't trained to know the difference; they are.  This is their area of expertise, not ours.  We must study so to understand what they are saying, not dumb it down so they speak on our level.
    I meant to say "folks here". And yes, I do accept that one can (and should) use the word magisterium in an infallible sense, otherwise the term itself actually is confusing infallible teachings with teachings that are fallible. That isn't dumbing it down, that is simply applying actual meaning to proper wording.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #52 on: January 03, 2018, 02:37:30 PM »
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  • None of this is true. There are statements by Paul VI saying that it was infallible and was binding. The V II docs themselves ALL imply that it is intended to be believed by the entire Church and Paul VI says he is using his supreme and apostolic authority to promulgate them. You don't have a leg to stand on. There is no way around it. If Paul VI was a true Pope, you must adhere to the teaching in Vatican II.
    What were these statements pertaining to?

    Were these things that you say would have been infallible if a true pope said them, contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition - and were these things proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed? Or were they new doctrines?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #53 on: January 03, 2018, 02:57:49 PM »
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    The V II docs themselves ALL imply that it is intended to be believed by the entire Church
    Of course they IMPLIED it, because the modernists wanted people to think they were binding.  An implication is not enough.  It must be clear and without doubt.  And I'm talking about the docuмents themselves - they must be clear as to their intent and clear that they are binding of the faithful because they teach truths which have a 'certainty of faith'.  V2 contradicts itself - so which side of the contradiction am I bound to believe?

    Quote
    and Paul VI says he is using his supreme and apostolic authority to promulgate them.
    We've been over this before..."promulgate" is a legal word which has to do with issuing a legal docuмent (in this case, Paul VI was declaring that the coucil docuмents were legally formalized and that the council was complete).  It has nothing to do with faith/morals/infallibility. 

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    You don't have a leg to stand on. There is no way around it. If Paul VI was a true Pope, you must adhere to the teaching in Vatican II.
    Another 'either-or' from a sede, with no room for distinctions or reality.  How amusing.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #54 on: January 03, 2018, 03:00:48 PM »
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  • Stubborn, I still don't understand your view of the magisterium.  What is it exactly?  The magisterium...
    Here is a previous post that should help explain it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #55 on: January 03, 2018, 03:01:51 PM »
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  • Therefore, not everything in the AAS is by itself infallible. It requires our assent unless it can be shown to contradict something from the  Magisterium. I believe that some of Pius XII's errors (NFP, theistic evo.) and his situation is similar to Honorius. We don't have Pope teaching a doctrine to the entire Church (like what was done in Vatican II). We merely have a validly elected Pope, allowing a belief or practice that is against divine law or Church Teaching. Honorius furthered or allowed Monothelitism; Pius XII furthered or allowed NFP, theistic evolution, etc...

    This then refers to Magisterium that's non-infallible.  At one point Church law stipulated that everything in AAS were to be considered part of the authentic Magisterium.  We're probably just talking sematic differences here then.  I and many theologians refer to things like what you cited above as non-infallible Magisterium ... whereas I'm guessing you would say it's not part of the Magisterium.  Question of definitions.  What's important is that some things that a pope teaches are infallible; others are not ... e.g. NFP, etc.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #56 on: January 03, 2018, 03:04:06 PM »
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    BY THE APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY CONFERRED ON US BY CHRIST, JOIN WITH THE VENERABLE FATHERS IN APPROVING, DECREEING, AND ESTABLISHING THESE THINGS IN THE HOLY SPIRIT,
    "These things".  What things?  The contents of each docuмent.  If you go back to the council docuмents, there is nothing that is binding.  Each docuмent must be clear in what they bind (this is why ALL PREVIOUS ecuмenical councils were infallible because the CANONS were clear, explicit and contained the anathemas we all know.  There's no doubt as to what they mean).

    So V2 approved, decreed and established what?  Answer: each individual docuмent.
    What did each individual docuмent bind us to?  Answer: nothing.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #57 on: January 03, 2018, 03:05:15 PM »
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  • Here is a previous post that should help explain it.

    You will note that Stubborn does not believe in any a priori guarantee of infallibility.  He believes that something is infallible if it's part of the Deposit of Revelation and non-infallible if it is not ... leaving Stubborn's private judgment to discern between which is which.  In point of fact, infallibility is an a priori guarantee that when some teaching meets the notes of infallibility, it is guaranteed a priori to be true.  So if one of these teachings doesn't correspond with what WE think has been divinely revealed, then we change our mind and now accept them as divinely revealed.  For Stubborn, if we think they're not revealed, we reject them.  Stubborn would have made a very good Old Catholic.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #58 on: January 03, 2018, 03:10:17 PM »
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  • "These things".  What things?  The contents of each docuмent.  If you go back to the council docuмents, there is nothing that is binding.  Each docuмent must be clear in what they bind (this is why ALL PREVIOUS ecuмenical councils were infallible because the CANONS were clear, explicit and contained the anathemas we all know.  There's no doubt as to what they mean).

    So V2 approved, decreed and established what?  Answer: each individual docuмent.
    What did each individual docuмent bind us to?  Answer: nothing.

    Well, there has to be some sense of definition.  Not every word of every Council is infallible.

    Nevertheless, the problem of Vatican II is NOT one of infallibility but of indefectibility.  We're arguing about the wrong thing.

    We can quibble about the exact limits of infallibility (as theologians have done since about, oh, five minutes after Vatican I closed), but if an Ecuмenical Council teaches a fundamentally erroneous and flawed system of theology (with its faulty ecclesiology and soteriology) that we must reject in order to preserve our faith, then the Magisterium would have failed ... as would the Universal Discipline of the Church in the New Mass.  With V2 and the New Mass we're not talking about some offhand comment in an encyclical letter that could be respectfully questioned.  We're talking about a new non-Catholic subjectivist theological system.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « Reply #59 on: January 03, 2018, 03:11:16 PM »
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    Obviously not everything coming out of the mouth or from the pen of a Pope is infallible. Deducing what has been said about the Teaching office in the past, we can, first of all, surmise that it cannot err. Then we know how Magisterium is exercised Extraordinarily as per Vatican I.
    Agree.
    .
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    The Magisterium exercised ordinarily and universally must be considered infallible as per V I.
    V1 only defines the parameters for Extraordinary/Solemn papal definitions.  It doesn't define the 'ordinary and universal' magisterium...which is why we are reading articles and debating it.
    .
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    This means that anything that can be shown to contradict a teaching we know to have been taught as divinely revealed must not be infallible.
    Agree.