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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 73699 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 01:11:14 PM »
I have to disagree.  Dogma is not the proximate rule of faith.  Neither is the pope himself personally.  Proximate rule of faith is the Magisterium.

Dogma is in fact the OBJECT of our faith.  We have the remote rule of faith in Scripture/Tradition, and the proximate role of faith in the Magisterium.

Truth of the matter is actually in between the two sides debating in the OP.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2018, 01:34:55 PM »
How do you define the word 'magisterium'?


Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2018, 01:56:08 PM »
I think Ladislaus is correct. The rule of faith is the teaching Church (the Magisterium) which safeguards and teaches to every generation God's revealed truth found in both Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

What is this Magisterium or "teaching Church"? From the CE entry on "Rule of Faith":

Quote
Now the teaching Church is the Apostolic body continuing to the end of time (Matthew 28:19-20); but only one of the bishops, viz., the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of St. Peter; he alone can be regarded as the living Apostle and Vicar of Christ, and it is only by union with him that the rest of the episcopate can be said to possess the Apostolic character (Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Prooemium). Hence, unless they be united with the Vicar of Christ, it is futile to appeal to the episcopate in general as the rule of faith.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2018, 03:18:05 PM »
Quote
The rule of faith is the teaching Church (the Magisterium) which safeguards and teaches to every generation God's revealed truth found in both Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
This is not what Lad said.  He said the Magisterium is the "role of" (not the rule of) faith.  Not sure what "role of" means.  Maybe he means the magisterium "has the role of (protecting the faith)."  I would agree, but what if they DON'T protect the faith?  This is where it gets complicated and you have to distinguish.

My point is asking what the definition of 'magisterium' is, is due to the fact that it is a new term, first used in the mid/late 1800s.  And theologians have defined it in various ways, with various distinctions.  So, much like the the 'papacy', or 'jurisdiction' which has various categories and levels, so does 'magisterium' need to be precisely explained, depending on what circuмstance you are talking about.  There is the ordinary magisterium (the current hierarchy) and there's the UNIVERSAL magisterium (the consistent teachings of all the hierarchy's over the period of 2,000 years).  The UNIVERSAL magisterium is also called multiple terms ('ordinary and universal' or 'perpetual').

Here's how I see it.  The Church is based on Truth and Christ.  Truth comes from Scripture/Tradition.  Christ protects the Truth from OFFICIALLY being corrupted by the gates of hell, and the papacy (which takes the place of Christ on earth) is also charged with this job of protecting the Truth.

The magisterium is the OFFICIAL teachings of the Church, and it is simply the deciding factor in "what has always been taught" consistently for 2,000 years and is based on Scripture/Tradition.  The popes from the past have clarified and ruled that this or that is consistent with Apostolic Truth.  So, doctrine is our "rule of" faith.  The magisterium (which is the pope, or the pope with the bishops, but HAS to include the pope, because he's the only one with the power of infallibility) has as its job, the duty to clarify and re-teach "what has always been taught".

The principle of 'Truth is authority' applies here.  Truth is 1) scripture & tradition and 2) Dogmas which have been defined at councils and 3) any other truths (i.e. officially promulgated or not) which have been consistently taught for 2,000 years.  A good example of #3 would be the truth that Our Lady is the 'mediatrix of all graces'.  Many orthodox cardinals wanted to define this at V2 in hopes of countering the errors of protestants towards Our Lady, but they were thwarted.  Even though it was not defined, this truth has been consistently held and is an implicit part of our faith.

If you hold that the 'magisterium' is the "rule of" faith, you could be right, if you SPECIFY that you are only talking about the UNIVERSAL magisterium, because this would include Scripture, Tradition and all doctrinal matters.  But, if you're talking about the 'ordinary magisterium' being the "rule of" faith, then this would be backwards, because 1) the ordinary magisterium is just simply the current hierarchy and they are not infallible, unless they define something, per V1, and 2) this would be the false principle of 'whoever is in authority is Truth'.  No, those in authority (i.e. hierarchy) do not determine Truth.  This is what the modernists want us to think - that Truth changes based on who's in charge and 'the needs of the time'.  No, Truth (which is what Drew means when he says 'dogma') is the ultimate authority, because truth comes from Christ, who is Truth itself.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2018, 03:26:38 PM »
This is not what Lad said.  He said the Magisterium is the "role of" (not the rule of) faith.  Not sure what "role of" means. 

Sorry, that was just a typo.  Didn't notice it until now.  I MEANT "rule".