Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on June 20, 2022, 12:11:04 PM
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Jacob Pius: Chinese “Traditionalist Catholic” Remains in Jail
06/17/2022LAI MINGXIA (https://bitterwinter.org/author/lai-mingxia/)
https://bitterwinter.org/jacob-pius-chinese-traditionalist-catholic-jailed/
A young Catholic with a sense of humor proposed to establish a traditional Catholic monarchy in a part of China. The CCP was not amused. He was arrested in January 2021 and is still in prison.
by Lai Mingxia*
*Massimo Introvigne contributed details on the non-Chinese movements mentioned by “Jacob Pius”
(https://bitterwinter.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/coat-of-arms-of-the-traditional-Catholic-monarchy-of-Yuyencia.jpeg)(https://i.imgur.com/Ft2sK7B.jpg)Proposed coat of arms of the traditional Catholic monarchy of Yuyencia, designed by Jacob Pius. From Weibo.
“Viva Cristo Rey.” The slogan was the symbol of the Cristero ιnѕυrrєcтισn of 1926 against the anti-clerical Mexican Republic, and resonates with conservative Catholics throughout the world to this very day. To hear it repeated in China in the 21st century is another matter entirely.
In 2014, a young man signing “Jacob Pius” surfaced in Chinese social media advocating for the independence of a “country” he called Yuyencia (幽燕西亚), which would include part of present-day Hebei, Beijing, and Tianjin. He supported the creation of Yuyencia with theories about the mythical Chinese first dynasty Xia.
His arguments appeared so far-fetched that many suspected they were proposed tongue-in-cheek, although the young man should have been aware that advocating separatism in China is not a matter for jokes but a crime punished with heavy jail penalties.
In subsequent years, “Jacob Pius” explained that, although other religions will be tolerated, Yuyencia will have Roman Catholicism as the state religion and will be ruled according to the model of traditional Catholic monarchies.
“Jacob” mentioned the 19th and early 20th century French monarchist theorists and the traditionalist Carlist branch of the monarchist movement in Spain as his sources of inspiration. He also stated that present-day Catholicism is largely contaminated by the “modernist heresy” and will not be able to supply the official state doctrine of Yuyencia. This will rather be “traditionalist” Catholicism. Again, this was totally unusual in China—and dangerous, since advocating “counter-revolutionary” ideologies is also a crime.
(https://bitterwinter.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/flag-of-the-kingdom-of-Yuyencia.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GQPmZH8.jpg)Proposed flag of the kingdom of Yuyencia.
Some netizens doubted that “Jacob Pius” was serious. Others believed it had derived his ideas from Liu Zhongjing, who emerged on the web in the early 2000 and was known by the nickname “Auntie” (阿姨). His ideology was called “Auntology” and was inspired by German nationalist philosopher Oswald Spengler, who died in 1936. Liu theorized that China, since the Qing, had become a fallen project, and it would be preferable that it disintegrates into autonomous independent states, whose borders can be reconstructed based on ancient Chinese history. Some of his remarks were racist and anti-Islamic, and Liu expressed his admiration for European right-wing and anti-immigration parties.
The fact that he was not put in jail and, while criticized, even invited to debate CCP (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/ccp/) scholars, is evidence of the limited tolerance that existed before Xi Jinping (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/xi-jinping/)—and at the same time of the fact that Liu’s brand of right-wing extremism was not regarded as really dangerous. When Xi Jinping (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/xi-jinping/)came to power, Liu was smart enough to see the writing on the wall on time and escape to the United States.
“Jacob Pius,” however, remained in China. “Gao Yang” is a Catholic human rights (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/human-rights/) activist who was interviewed by Hong Kong and Western media in 2019 and 2020 under this assumed name, and supplied information about the persecution in Hebei of Catholic “conscientious objectors” who rejected the Vatican-China deal of 2018 (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/vatican-china-deal-of-2018/). Bitter Winter has learned that “Jacob Pius” and “Gao Yang” are one and the same person. His real name is Pang Jian, and he was born in Baoding city, Hebei province (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/province/), in 1991. He is a resident of Gaobeidian, a county-level city (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/county-level-city/) under the jurisdiction of Baoding city, and has published as “Gao Yang” on Hebei history and folklore.
(https://bitterwinter.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Pang-Jian.jpeg)Pang Jian, aka “Jacob Pius.” From Weibo.
That Pang Jian alias Gao Yang alias Jacob Pius is a conservative Catholic is true, although where he derived his passion for European Catholic monarchist and counter-revolutionary Catholicism from remains unclear. It is also difficult to distinguish what theories he advocates seriously, and what he just proposes as paradoxes and social experiments of sort.
On these matters, however, the CCP (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/ccp/) always prefers to be on the safer side. On January 15, 2021, Pang was detained by the Gaobeidian police, and taken to the Gaobeidian Detention Center (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/detention-center/). On January 28, 2021, he was formally arrested and charged with “separatism,” a very serious offense. His friends have no information about his trial, if any, although it is believed it is still in the Gaobeidian prison.
The independence of Yuyencia may have been a joke. But the CCP (https://bitterwinter.org/Vocabulary/ccp/) reaction is deadly serious.
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I think I know this guy. There was a poster, a young guy, can't recall which forums he was on, but whenever I spoke with him privately he identified himself as Jacob Pius.
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I think I know this guy. There was a poster, a young guy, can't recall which forums he was on, but whenever I spoke with him privately he identified himself as Jacob Pius.
That’d be him.
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Works for me. Far better than what they have now in China.
Perhaps after the Three Days of Darkness, if there is indeed to be such a thing, the world can be reconstituted with Catholic monarchies. That need not be thought of as an exclusively European thing.
Kigeli V of Rwanda was a traditional Catholic, and here's your fun fact for today, I once lived in the same high-rise apartment building, in northern Virginia, as HM did, apartment right above mine. He was 7 feet tall, I don't know how I didn't notice him. I worked long hours and was going to school nights, maybe our paths just never crossed.
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I think I know this guy. There was a poster, a young guy, can't recall which forums he was on, but whenever I spoke with him privately he identified himself as Jacob Pius.
See 5th profile down:
https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/900/
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For some reason, I cannot get the text to paste here, so you need to go to the link above to read his profile.
The blog cited there about his Kingdom of Yuyencia has been disabled (probably by the Chi-coms).
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https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/900/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/900/)
My name is Jacob Pius, Jacob ”is my baptized name，“Pius”is my confirmation name that is ready to use it in future. The Christian name, is follow Helping Spanish expel Muslims from St. James the Great, and defend to the traditional Catholic beliefs St. Pius X Pope against Modernism.
I come from Northern China, where was the ancient Yan Kingdom's Dugang place. It is located in Baoding City in the south of Beijing and west of Tianjin. I am 26 years old (born on July 22, 1992), and was born in a pagan family in the countryside. My ancestors may be nomadic tribes from the Eurasian steppe. parents believe in polytheism or Buddhism, My grandfather had joined the Communist Party, But my uncle-grandfather (my maternal grandmother's brother) was an armed militia called "White neck" who resisted the invasion of the Communist Party in his hometown in the 1940s, Later, after the battle for protecting his hometown away from communist was defeated, he had been killed by Communist. Currently, there are 4 people in my family: my parents, my brother and me. My current job is painting and design. Although I am from the North China, But I am not a Chinese. I think my nation（ethnic group） should be a Yuyencian. I support and join the Yuyencia independence movement (see Twitter @Yuyencian about this political event).
The Yuyencia Church is the largest part of China Catholic, not only in its longest history, but also in the largest number of people, the most Priest, and the most determined areas against the Chinese Communist Party’s religious policy. （about Yuyencia Loyalty Church See: https://yuyencia.wordpress.com/2018/04/09/%E5%B9%BD%E7%87%95%E6%95%99%E4%BC%9A%E7%9A%84% E4%BA%94%E6%AC%A1%E8%80%83%E9%AA%8Chave-english-version/ )In this still highly centralized communist country, It is a real faith fortress, Is the key to spreading the Catholic faith throughout East Asia, never be defeated by the enemy. But you are also clear, our universal church is now facing an unprecedented crisis, Vatican II Modernism Firmly Controls the Holy See, those Vatican officials became apostates, now it is going to betray the Loyalty church in my hometown, Signed an agreement with the Chinese Communist Party, And let the two countries that can’t coexist with each other establish diplomatic relations. This is a historic end to the Loyalty church in my hometown, but I also think this is a turning point in the recovery. Because many years ago, The priests of the faithful church were smitten by the Vatican of modernism. many people, including Bishop Fan Xueyan, nothing is known about the dangers of Vatican II, Because at the time of Vatican II, they are all in isolated prisons, In the iron curtain of the Communist Party, Information flow is inconvenient. But because of it, When they revived the church in the 80's, Persistence and spread are the pre-Vatican II Catholic beliefs, Including the ritual of consecrate bishops and priests. Until the late 1990s, Modernism began to spread in churches in my hometown, mainly in the liturgical reform, completely changed to Mandarin. But because of the conservation of the church in his hometown, for a long time we do not allow many outrageous exaggeration of innovative experiments. Until recent years, Modernism was formally impact, Mostly because most of the old bishops and priests who had received formal education pre-Vatican II had passed away.Because of the limitations of the environment under Communist rule, Tradition does not spread well to the next generation of clergy. Many of these young priests have accepted a modernist mission organization called the "disciple class(门徒班)", Everywhere to learn the Bible and the revival of the Divine grace spreading heresies, their harm is getting bigger and bigger. And in the Loyalty church of Novus Ordo, only few people recognizing the dangers of Vatican II and turn to traditional camps, mainly because of the lack of traditional missionaries.
Beginning in 2014, after I got rid of the trap of the New Age and the Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ Thought, I began to accept the Catholic faith. At that time, I still couldn't notice the problem of Vatican II and the tradition, but the team was on the side of the loyal church. Later, I have a deep understanding of the Vatican II conference and modernism, Especially through the docuмentary of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, also know the opposition such as SSPX, but at the beginning I was supporting all traditionalists, does not oppose the compromise between SSPX and the Modernist Vatican, nor does it oppose FSSP's surrender, I didn’t go to church in the open church(CCPA) to participate in mass after that, just go to the underground church near my home. In 2016, because I was very active on the internet at the time, spread the knowledge of many Catholic traditions, so I met more and more supporters of the traditional, after the introduction of one of them, In the fall of this year, I started to contact the priest of SSPX for the first time, first time to participate in the traditional Latin Mass, So I also started to plan for the SSPX priest to baptize me with traditional ritual, It also reduced contact with the underground church on my home. However, the SSPX priest enters the mainland only once a year for no more than ten times, so the plan for baptism was delayed until the winter of 2017, Fr. O agreed to baptize me in June this year. After more than a month of preparation,I had a long journey of nearly 50 days. I walked about 2,500km by bicycle. Mainly to some pilgrimage sites in the Yuyencia. Visited more than 60 churches. June 5, 2018, I passed the sacred baptism in the secret room of a hotel, formally became a Catholic.
In the summer of 2017, I was almost expelled by SSPX, because the head of SSPX in mainland China knows that my position is biased towards the Sedevacantism and supports the Resistance movement of Bishop Williamson. I also oppose the cooperation of SSPX and the Patriotic Association（CPCA）, but In order to be able to baptize, I later did not cause conflict with them.
I learned about the internal division of SSPX before, I support the Bishop Williamson, SSPX really should not have too much contact with the modernist church in the current situation, the agreement between them is like the agreement between the Vatican and the Chinese Communist Party, is full of evil, cannot be confused by the tradition of restoration that Benedict XVI once had, he could be honest, but many liberals Vatican bureaucracy actually wanted to drive a wedge between the Society, the hostile relationship has not changed, do not naive, too close to the Vatican will only bring deeper danger to SSPX, so I fully support the idea that Bishop Williamson ignored the Vatican and missionary independently, but I really don’t want to see the SSPX split more and more, hope SSPX executives will be wise, recognize the status quo and return to the right path. about Sedevacantist, Because I do not have the knowledge of theology and Canon law, so temporarily I can't understand which is correct, But I think as long as they have no problem with the teaching and ritual of tradition, can ignore them. Even if it's correct, this small group mentality can not solve the problem, In particular, most ordinary members of the church do not understand these complex issues, It's not easy for most people to maintain their traditional beliefs, whether the pope is the real, actually not important, we will do as required by Archbishop Lefebvre, as long as the Vatican does not return to normal, we do not have dealings with them, the two sides remain parallel relationship on the line, So as to guarantee the stability of the internal SSPX, not interfered with by modernists, this missionary independence is very important in the current crisis.
Now, I am plan to go to the seminary, so I want find more knowledge in here.
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In the fall of this year, I started to contact the priest of SSPX for the first time, first time to participate in the traditional Latin Mass, So I also started to plan for the SSPX priest to baptize me with traditional ritual, It also reduced contact with the underground church on my home. However, the SSPX priest enters the mainland only once a year for no more than ten times, so the plan for baptism was delayed until the winter of 2017
I'm curious about the SSPX in China, but it's probably not wise to have a public discussion about it.
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So far as the am aware, Jacob Pius is the first CI member arrested by a government for his Catholic Faith.
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Interesting statement there implying some kind of cooperation between SSPX and CCPA?
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So far as the am aware, Jacob Pius is the first CI member arrested by a government for his Catholic Faith.
He likely will not be the last.
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https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/900/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/900/)
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That's him!
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I was wondering where he'd been. A communist prison wasn't what I expected the answer to be.
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Very mild mannered young man with lots of conviction. Also very smart. He and I discussed lengthy and relatively successful translation efforts of his.
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Guy sounds like just another internet crank. I'm sorry he's in prison, though, he sounds like a good guy.
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That's him!
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I was wondering where he'd been. A communist prison wasn't what I expected the answer to be.
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Very mild mannered young man with lots of conviction. Also very smart. He and I discussed lengthy and relatively successful translation efforts of his.
I was able to find the Chinese version of his blog. About 2/3 of the way down, he has extended English translations (ie., the last 1/3 of the blog is pics, so when you hit those, just start scrolling back towards the top, and you’ll hit the English portions):
https://yuyencia.wordpress.com
At a glance, a few things become evident:
1) He is a very learned “Chinese” historian.
2) I put “Chinese” in quotes, because he would take exception to being called Chinese:
The whole blog is about the history of Yuyencia, the Chinese aggressors, and anti communist material. He basically denies his former ancient kingdom of Yuyencia is part of China.
3) It is no joke. He’s a dead-serious separatist, and that’s going to land you in hot water with the commies.
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See 5th profile down:
https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/introduce-yourself!/900/
Amazing young man, very inspiring story. I will definitely be praying for him. Thanks for finding this
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3) It is no joke. He’s a dead-serious separatist, and that’s going to land you in hot water with the commies.
Yup. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that his Traditional faith is the primary reason for his arrest, but rather his political views.
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To quote someone from when I was on Gab: "The Great Monarch is the original Q"
In my opinion, the time has long passed for that prophecy.
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To quote someone from when I was on Gab: "The Great Monarch is the original Q"
In my opinion, the time has long passed for that prophecy.
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Thumbs up, pal! This is a fascinating insight. Constant predictions about some great hero who will put all the bad guys away and restore everything to what it should be ... who is always just around the corner.
I never thought of the Great Monarch this way, but fake prophecies have been around since the beginning of the Church. In the middle ages there was something called the Mirabilis Liber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabilis_Liber) that predicted all kinds of things that never happened. It supposedly included a number of statements from canonized saints, and yet I believe it was on the Index of Forbidden Books (or the medieval equivalent).
Here's a juicy excerpt from this absurd book (http://www.propheties.it/nostradamus/medieval/mirabilis-english/mirabilis-english.htm):
There shall be earthquakes in divers places.
The cities and provinces of the Islanders shall be swallowed up by floods.
To the plague which shall devastate some places shall be joined the fury of enemies, and nothing shall be able to comfort them.
Then shall come a king called B., under whose reign there shall be many wars.
He shall reign for two years, and after him shall come a prince A., who shall remain a long time on the throne.
He shall march against Rome and shall seize it.
The Lord shall not deliver it into the hands of his enemies during his lifetime.
He shall be good and great, and shall render justice to the poor.
He shall be from the race of the Lombards.
After him there shall be another prince, named B, from whom twelve other B. shall spring.
Himself a Lombard, he shall reign a hundred years.
Then shall appear, after him, a Salic [i.e.Frankish] prince, named L., a frightful prince, under whom shall begin a series of sufferings whose like has never been since the beginning of the world: battles, tribulations, bƖσσdshɛd, earthquakes, cities in captivity.
The Lord in his wrath shall send a man whose yoke nobody shall be able to shake off, other than the Lord himself.
The Romans shall be beaten, and the Roman city shall be destroyed.
The earth shall be covered in ruins: never shall monarch have done such a thing.
This city [i.e.Rome] shall be called Babylon; this kingdom shall be of iron, and Rome shall be prey to persecution and the sword.
Men shall be greedy, despots, hard on paupers, oppressors, unjust, wicked.
Resistance shall be impossible at the time, but the Persians, Macedonians and Turks, hearing of this tyrant, shall form an alliance, shall come to Rome, and shall seize the Salic prince, whom they shall cause to undergo a cruel death, and the burning of Rome shall be avenged.
Then shall emerge in Gaul a king of the Greeks, Francs and Romans, of lofty stature and handsome appearance; his body and limbs shall have the most beautiful proportions; he shall reign a hundred and twelve years; he shall carry written on his forehead: "This man, verily, is destined to avenge Christendom, snatch it away from the yoke of Ishmael [i.e.the Arabs], conquer it from the Saracens; none of the Saracens shall thereafter be able to reign.
" Seven times over, he shall cause them the greatest ill, shall ruin their whole empire, shall strike them; after that, peace shall reign for Christians up until the time of the Antichrist.
It is obvious that most of these things have been disproved by subsequent events.
I think people have such a great desire to know the future, and likewise to be saved by some great hero from the evils of the world, that a prediction of the future that tells them of such a coming hero is almost irresistible.
It is entirely plausible that the Great Monarch is one of those things too.
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I suppose we can abstract from this concrete situation and discuss false prophecies and the like, but the OP (despite its title) is about a traditional Catholic man in the world's most oppressive country being imprisoned for wanting a Catholic state.
Don't be fαɢs. That's courageous stuff. Let's keep Jacob Pius in our prayers, and hope we can have just a little of that mettle.
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Sorry, guys, but there's WAY too much Catholic prophecy from some highly-credible mystics backing the arrival of a Great Monarch to gratuitously dismiss.
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He will likely be a saint soon. :pray: for him to hold fast till the end!
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I suppose we can abstract from this concrete situation and discuss false prophecies and the like, but the OP (despite its title) is about a traditional Catholic man in the world's most oppressive country being imprisoned for wanting a Catholic state.
Don't be fαɢs. That's courageous stuff. Let's keep Jacob Pius in our prayers, and hope we can have just a little of that mettle.
Besides there is nothing in this thread to infer that this brave young man is, or claims to be, the Great Monarch, except for the title Sean gave it.
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Thumbs up, pal! This is a fascinating insight. Constant predictions about some great hero who will put all the bad guys away and restore everything to what it should be ... who is always just around the corner.
I never thought of the Great Monarch this way, but fake prophecies have been around since the beginning of the Church. In the middle ages there was something called the Mirabilis Liber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabilis_Liber) that predicted all kinds of things that never happened. It supposedly included a number of statements from canonized saints, and yet I believe it was on the Index of Forbidden Books (or the medieval equivalent).
Here's a juicy excerpt from this absurd book (http://www.propheties.it/nostradamus/medieval/mirabilis-english/mirabilis-english.htm):
It is obvious that most of these things have been disproved by subsequent events.
I think people have such a great desire to know the future, and likewise to be saved by some great hero from the evils of the world, that a prediction of the future that tells them of such a coming hero is almost irresistible.
It is entirely plausible that the Great Monarch is one of those things too.
Agreed. Its obviously acceptable to have faith in these prophecies when they're approved for belief, so I'm not saying people can't believe in them. I simply don't. Only the prophecies in Scripture are guaranteed to come true.
The time of monarchs has passed, I personally think the possibility for its fulfillment closed with the destruction of Christendom by WWI. It seems like a prophecy that was meant to be fulfilled in the 19th century when the papal states were seized and restructured into modern Italy.
This kind of goes for the Fatima prophecies as well. Some provide solid evidence that the consecration was done by Pius XII (which I've since come to agree with again), some disagree and follow the Grunerite fantasy that it's yet to come. I don't believe its fruitful to keep all of our faith in the hope for a worldly utopia when we are warned against such hopes time and time again by Our Lord.
https://youtu.be/VB_hUdRKi4o
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This kind of goes for the Fatima prophecies as well. Some provide solid evidence that the consecration was done by Pius XII (which I've since come to agree with again), some disagree and follow the Grunerite fantasy that it's yet to come. I don't believe its fruitful to keep all of our faith in the hope for a worldly utopia when we are warned against such hopes time and time again by Our Lord.
And just look at what Fatima is being used for with Francis and his "consecration". Russia is seen as a savior and somehow not attached to the Great Reset, etc. There are even people supposedly on the Right calling for Russia to destroy the United States apparently without a sense of self preservation. Then there are those that claim that this and that prophecy hasn't been fulfilled, therefore this and that must be the case or come true.
I've done a lot of conspiracy research, but I admire the few on the forum who avoided the danger with a simple Catholic faith. It's easier to believe that we have it figured all out when we really know almost nothing and face a future full of unknowns.
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And just look at what Fatima is being used for with Francis and his "consecration". Russia is seen as a savior and somehow not attached to the Great Reset, etc. There are even people supposedly on the Right calling for Russia to destroy the United States apparently without a sense of self preservation. Then there are those that claim that this and that prophecy hasn't been fulfilled, therefore this and that must be the case or come true.
I've done a lot of conspiracy research, but I admire the few on the forum who avoided the danger with a simple Catholic faith. It's easier to believe that we have it figured all out when we really know almost nothing and face a future full of unknowns.
Not to divulge much from the topic at hand, but is actually through my research concerning Russia's status as a crypto-Communist state that further convinces me that the Consecration has not been done.
Agreed. Its obviously acceptable to have faith in these prophecies when they're approved for belief, so I'm not saying people can't believe in them. I simply don't. Only the prophecies in Scripture are guaranteed to come true.
The time of monarchs has passed, I personally think the possibility for its fulfillment closed with the destruction of Christendom by WWI. It seems like a prophecy that was meant to be fulfilled in the 19th century when the papal states were seized and restructured into modern Italy.
This kind of goes for the Fatima prophecies as well. Some provide solid evidence that the consecration was done by Pius XII (which I've since come to agree with again), some disagree and follow the Grunerite fantasy that it's yet to come. I don't believe its fruitful to keep all of our faith in the hope for a worldly utopia when we are warned against such hopes time and time again by Our Lord.
https://youtu.be/VB_hUdRKi4o
Personally, I think that monarchs will come back. After all, monarchy is perhaps the most natural form of government in the world. It will only take a collapse of this wretched post-WWII world order, and from it the ashes of a new, regenerated old world order will be reborn. Once men can no longer cling to this pathetic cripple of modern civilization, they will have to "get real" so to speak (without government programs and bureaucracy to help them) and common sense will become common again.
I think that I should stop here so as not to further take away from the OP.
Jacob Pius is a hero, though perhaps he may have been imprudent for posting his separatist opinions online, ultimately he was fighting for a Catholic cause. I will remember him in my prayers.
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Agreed. Its obviously acceptable to have faith in these prophecies when they're approved for belief, so I'm not saying people can't believe in them. I simply don't. Only the prophecies in Scripture are guaranteed to come true.
The time of monarchs has passed, I personally think the possibility for its fulfillment closed with the destruction of Christendom by WWI. It seems like a prophecy that was meant to be fulfilled in the 19th century when the papal states were seized and restructured into modern Italy.
This kind of goes for the Fatima prophecies as well. Some provide solid evidence that the consecration was done by Pius XII (which I've since come to agree with again), some disagree and follow the Grunerite fantasy that it's yet to come. I don't believe its fruitful to keep all of our faith in the hope for a worldly utopia when we are warned against such hopes time and time again by Our Lord.
https://youtu.be/VB_hUdRKi4o
I'm glad you mentioned this. It is an important topic that should be debated in an open trad forum.
Dr. Sungenis has joined the side of the Dimonds' to debunk the Fatima Consecration devotion.
Would it be possible to debate this on Cathinfo, with Matthew organizing the two debate teams, setting the rules and acting as the moderator?
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Besides there is nothing in this thread to infer that this brave young man is, or claims to be, the Great Monarch, except for the title Sean gave it.
Yes. But I think the fact that this is what happened is why some have posted concerns about jumping to prophecies which may or may not be true.
Having said that, Jacob Pius' introduction post is very interesting. Unfortunately, it's only as of 2018.
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I'm glad you mentioned this. It is an important topic that should be debated in an open trad forum.
Dr. Sungenis has joined the side of the Dimonds' to debunk the Fatima Consecration devotion.
Would it be possible to debate this on Cathinfo, with Matthew organizing the two debate teams, setting the rules and acting as the moderator?
I completely disagree with the Dimonds and believe that the Consecration is yet to come, that it'll take place at the darkest hour and result in a miraculous turnaround, a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Church.
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Not to divulge much from the topic at hand, but is actually through my research concerning Russia's status as a crypto-Communist state that further convinces me that the Consecration has not been done.
Not condemning research, but lamenting that so many have been bamboozled by pro-Russian Fatimism. You've done a great job.
I completely disagree with the Dimonds and believe that the Consecration is yet to come, that it'll take place at the darkest hour and result in a miraculous turnaround, a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Church.
+1
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Is there text in Book of Apocalypse inferring or stating a "great monarch" a la the Catholic prophesies is coming?
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Besides there is nothing in this thread to infer that this brave young man is, or claims to be, the Great Monarch, except for the title Sean gave it.
Indeed. Never will understand some of the tabloid titles here.
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Is there text in Book of Apocalypse inferring or stating a "great monarch" a la the Catholic prophesies is coming?
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Is there text in Book of Apocalypse inferring or stating a "great monarch" a la the Catholic prophesies is coming?
No, but there is the mention of a period of peace lasting about a generation before the arrival of Antichrist, and there's tons of private prophecy regarding the Great Monarch from some highly credible mystics.
http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/great-catholic-monarch.htm
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King of France, descendant of the Capetians, with Spanish and German blood. A Bourbon? It's the only dynasty that fits there. It's a dynasty that descends from the Capetians, they are claimants to the throne of France, in turn the kings of France ultimately descend from the Franks, who were the Germans who invaded that part of the Roman Empire, and it's a dinasty with presence in Spain and currently the King of Spain is a Bourbon.
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King of France, descendant of the Capetians, with Spanish and German blood. A Bourbon? It's the only dynasty that fits there. It's a dynasty that descends from the Capetians, they are claimants to the throne of France, in turn the kings of France ultimately descend from the Franks, who were the Germans who invaded that part of the Roman Empire, and it's a dinasty with presence in Spain and currently the King of Spain is a Bourbon.
So ... perhaps this guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alphonse_de_Bourbon
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So ... perhaps this guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alphonse_de_Bourbon
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/Louis_XX.jpg/225px-Louis_XX.jpg)
He's certainly a handsome fellow. And is, apparently, a practicing Novus Ordite.
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No, but there is the mention of a period of peace lasting about a generation before the arrival of Antichrist, and there's tons of private prophecy regarding the Great Monarch from some highly credible mystics.
http://www.todayscatholicworld.com/great-catholic-monarch.htm
While there certainly isn't anything about a Great Catholic Monarch in Scripture, are you talking about the period of peace in Apoc. 20?
And I saw seats; and they sat upon them; and judgment was given unto them; and the souls of them that were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not adored the beast nor his image, nor received his character on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Father Sylvester Berry disagrees that the Peace precedes Antichrist, as Scripture plainly places it after Antichrist:
Fr. Berry, The Apocalypse of St. John, Part III, Ch. XX, pp. 189, 190
But practically all interpreters who accept these conclusions take the reign of Antichrist as a prelude to the last judgment and the end of the world. Then, contrary to the plain sense of Holy Scripture, they place the universal reign of Christ before the time of Antichrist. This, in turn, makes the chaining of the dragon a difficult problem. p.189
After the defeat of Antichrist the Gentile nations will return to the Church and the Jєωs will enter her fold. Then shall be fulfilled the words of Christ: ''There shall be one fold and one shepherd.'" Unfortunately sin and evil will not have entirely disappeared, the good and the bad will still be mingled in the Church, although the good shall predominate. After many centuries, symbolized by a thousand years, faith will diminish and charity grow cold as a result of the long peace and security enjoyed by the Church. Then Satan, unchained for a short time, will seduce many nations (Gog and Magog) to make war on the Church and persecute the faithful. These apostate nations shall be promptly overwhelmed with a deluge of fire and the Church will come forth again triumphant. The general judgment and the end of the world will then be near at hand. p. 190
As does Fr. Kramer:
Fr. Kramer, The Book of Destiny, X. 1. xx., pp. 451, 452, 453.
Verse four is impossible of logical interpretation for those who place the thousand years chronologically ahead of the reign of Antichrist, because its contents are a positive contradiction of that theory.
The martyrs who shed their blood under Antichrist shall rule the world with Christ for a thousand years. They saved the world from utter destruction by their heroism; so they shall be specially honored by their own nation. They may receive control over the elements and whatever else influences human life, as many saints have had power of intercession against diseases, misfortunes and calamities.
During the thousand years also those shall rule with Christ who have faithfully held to the teachings of the Church, kept the commandments and practiced their religion in defiance of all danger, though they may have died from other causes. The language of verse 4 permits such interpretation. They have not submitted to Antichrist nor adored him nor received the imprint of his insignia on their foreheads or hands.
They will reign from Antichrist till the end of time. This places the THOUSAND YEARS after the advent and domination of Antichrist whom their courage and constancy defeats and overthrows.
Obviously, this creates problems for the private revelations which state that the GM precedes Antichrist, as Scripture plainly testifies to the reign of peace coming after the fall of Antichrist.
Which also, in my view, creates even more problems for the MHFM view of JPII as Antichrist (again, it's compelling, but misses a lot of marks, and I have yet to hear back from MHFM about some of these points they miss); as it is clear that Antichrist will proclaim that HE is the Messiah, the Christ, not just teach heresy about all men being Jesus Christ (like JPII, who has CLEARLY promulgated Antichrist's doctrine by dissolving Christ, 1 John 4:3). But at the same time, what compels me to their thesis is that spiritual destruction on a mass scale far, far outweighs any physical destruction. It's possible they are correct in stating that the First Beast, the Red Dragon, was Soviet Communism which has given way to the Second Beast and the Harlot which is the NWO and the Novus Ordo false religion, respectively, of which the Image of the Beast (Antichrist) sits atop the Harlot. So, if the NO is the prophesied Harlot, then the Antichrist has to have either come already or is to come soon as some sort of NO prelate or Antipope (given that the Papacy is the highest office in this world).
Interestingly enough, the 3.5 years commonly attributed to the reign of the Man of Sin is interpreted by Sig. Pastorini as a limit on the length of any given persecution in Church history:
Sig. Pastorini, History of the Christian Church, p. 61-62
In these various desolate abodes the Christians, though in appearance destitute of all human succour, were nevertheless fed and supported by a special divine providence for the space of a thousand two hundred and sixty days, or three years and a half, which was the utmost duration of any of the Roman persecutions; some of which did not fill that period, none exceeded it.
I don't see a period, in recent memory surrounding the Vatican II catastrophe, that fits such a period outside of the Council itself, which lasted 3 years and 2 months; or, possibly, the suppression of the Mass with the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae under Paul VI in 1969, albeit there's no definite period of time I've identified pertaining to it. Although Pastorini believes that no persecution will exceed it at any time.
As for worldly events, clearly the COVID lie we've been living through for 2.5 years now would fit such a period of persecution, as all who hold the name of Christian have suffered some form of persecution through its lockdowns and mandates.
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Doesn't John 5:43 mean that the Antichrist will be recognized by the Jєωs as their messiah? That has not happened yet. Also the kill of the Two Witnesses.
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Doesn't John 5:43 mean that the Antichrist will be recognized by the Jєωs as their messiah? That has not happened yet. Also the kill of the Two Witnesses.
Some tend to take that interpretation, yes. But it could also simply mean that they will take to themselves false teachers (such as the тαℓмυdic Rabbis) or even claimants to the title of "Mosiach", like in recent years. I honestly think the Antichrist will be their Mosiach, as do others here.
As for the Two Witnesses, I've heard that some speculate that it refers to Sts. Peter and Paul (citation needed), who both died in the Roman persecutions. Others think it will be Henoch and Elijah, or even Henoch and Moses. I personally don't see anyone in Church history, especially recently, who fits the bill (which are both points against the MHFM thesis).
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I personally don't see anyone in Church history, especially recently, who fits the bill (which are both points against the MHFM thesis).
What about Brothers Michael and Peter Dimond? :laugh1:
I have head some people throw +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer out there.
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What about Brothers Michael and Peter Dimond? :laugh1:
I have head some people throw +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer out there.
Well, considering they think that JPII was the Antichrist, I don't ever recall them being martyred in Rome, displayed publicly for 3 days, and then resurrecting and ascending into heaven. :popcorn:
I have heard the +Lefebvre and +de Castro-Mayer idea too, I think I even proposed it as a possibility the last time we talked about this subject. It's certainly plausible, from a spiritual standpoint, given their acceptance of the terms offered in the Ecclesia Dei commission as a "spiritual death" followed by a "spiritual resurrection" through their rejection of it before both dying exactly a month apart from each other (+Lefebvre March 25, 1991; de Castro-Mayer April 25, 1991). Not that I'm implying they ascended to heaven (as +Lefebvre open taught against EENS that non-Catholics can be saved in Against the Heresies, which, unfortunately, makes him a manifest heretic in the external forum given he never publicly repudiated it, although he could have privately done so before death)
This, of course, would fit better given that the spiritual persecution of the Faithful which came through the heresies and scandals of JPII, if he were the Antichrist.
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As for the Two Witnesses, I've heard that some speculate that it refers to Sts. Peter and Paul (citation needed), who both died in the Roman persecutions. Others think it will be Henoch and Elijah, or even Henoch and Moses. I personally don't see anyone in Church history, especially recently, who fits the bill (which are both points against the MHFM thesis).
What about Pope JP I (First)? Surely he was poisoned. Perhaps he was a 5th column traditionalist who was going to remove the eclipse of the Church and abrogate Vatican II? So the Newchurch usurpers killed him?
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As for the Great Monarch, Eric Gajewski presents himself as the leading candidate.
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As for the Great Monarch, Eric GaJєωski presents himself as the leading candidate.
:laugh1::laugh2:
According to Yves dupont, isn't the great monarch supposed to have a limp and come from French lines?
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Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee types in some decent numbers could shake things up in communist China and then he might be able to pull it off. He sounds like a good theoretician though.
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:laugh1::laugh2:
According to Yves dupont, isn't the great monarch supposed to have a limp and come from French lines?
I could see the Dimond Brothers giving Gajewski the Tina Harding treatment to produce the limp. And perhaps Gajewski has about 1% French blood somewhere, like Fauchahontis (Elizabeth Warren) to count herself a Native American.
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I could see the Dimond Brothers giving GaJєωski the Tina Harding treatment to produce the limp. And perhaps GaJєωski has about 1% French blood somewhere, like Fauchahontis (Elizabeth Warren) to count herself a Native American.
Sorry, that was Tonya Harding ... faulty memory.
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I'm far out of the loop on some things, but GaJewski's a dodgy grfiter isn't he? Cannery Row?
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I could see the Dimond Brothers giving GaJєωski the Tina Harding treatment to produce the limp. And perhaps GaJєωski has about 1% French blood somewhere, like Fauchahontis (Elizabeth Warren) to count herself a Native American.
Yeah, they and one of their followers eviscerated him ages ago. They're pretty good videos :popcorn:
https://youtu.be/9DNQYwToNq4
https://youtu.be/L2TWrrQ3or4
And they gave Anthony Stine the same treatment two months back
https://youtu.be/G5V3hY7c5yA
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I could see the Dimond Brothers giving GaJєωski the Tina Harding treatment to produce the limp. And perhaps GaJєωski has about 1% French blood somewhere, like Fauchahontis (Elizabeth Warren) to count herself a Native American.
:laugh1::laugh2:
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And they gave Anthony Stine the same treatment two months back
Not to derail things, but I think that it is unfair for the Dimond Bros. to jump to the conclusion that Stine essentially agreed from the beginning to become a puppet/shill for Gajewski. At around 7:02 in the video, they outright state that Gajewski and Stine could be in a partnership in which Gajewski buys the views in exchange for Stine promoting TCK. However, they also claim that it could be Stine who directly buys views.
I think what happened was that Eric reached out to Stine some point after Stine was starting to gain traction, and proposed an interview which started a chain of cooperation that eventually resulted in a kind of an "alliance" between the two. It was strange seeing Stine defend this guy whenever the questionable actions of Gajewski were brought up on the TradPatrick streams.
Stine actually promoted my channel in one of his posts (https://www.youtube.com/post/UgzD7HXrCGKRVQacrlV4AaABCQ), and I am grateful for that.
I propose this "theory" because Gajewski tried to do a similar thing to me; he contacted me via email for an interview after my channel (Promotor Fidei) started to gain some traction on YT. I politely refused him, because I didn't think my opinion matters much (I only reverted/converted about 4 years ago, and I'm a young guy) and I didn't want to be associated with his grifting operation. If anyone wants proof that this actually happened, PM me.
By the way, I wonder if the Dimonds will ever do a "hit piece" on me. It probably won't happen, but it's funny to imagine.
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By the way, I wonder if the Dimonds will ever do a "hit piece" on me. It probably won't happen, but it's funny to imagine.
Eh, they might, they might not. They tend to do it when people badmouth them. It's certainly one of their negative qualities
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My goodness, I didn't know Jacob Pius got arrested. I dabbled in Trad-Cat WeChat (a Chinese chatting app) for a short while in 2017/18 to get Catholic materials, and got to know him. I didn't get what his Yuyencia idea came from or how far he had realized it in the real world, but God bless him for suffering persecution.
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My goodness, I didn't know Jacob Pius got arrested. I dabbled in Trad-Cat WeChat (a Chinese chatting app) for a short while in 2017/18 to get Catholic materials, and got to know him. I didn't get what his Yuyencia idea came from or how far he had realized it in the real world, but God bless him for suffering persecution.
Thank God! Back on track!
Yes, in prison since Jan 2021, that is, if he is still alive.
(http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm)Matthew Chapter 5
[10] Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye when they shall revile you,
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Thank God! Back on track!
Yes, in prison since Jan 2021, that is, if he is still alive.
(http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47005.htm)Matthew Chapter 5
[10] Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [11] Blessed are ye when they shall revile you,
He is still in prisom, as of June 7, 2022, in Gaobeidian.
(https://i.imgur.com/gUeRyjL.png)
https://bitterwinter.org/jacob-pius-chinese-traditionalist-catholic-jailed/
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Thank you, Epiphany. I see now that was in the OP.
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I spent a little time today to see if I could find any relatively recent news of Jacob Pius/Pang Jian. I could not. Bumping as a reminder to pray for his resolve and perseverance, if he is still alive.
ETA: for anyone who didn't go back to the OP, this thread is about a Chinese CI user who was imprisoned (and presumably still imprisoned, if he is still alive) by the CCP for promoting a separatist Catholic state.
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Bro the whore of Babylon is literally on earth rn and you guys are talking about the GCM? We missed him. He was Adolf Hitler, or Benito Mussolini, or Phillipe Petain
If Pius XI or Pius XII had properly done the consecrations fascism would have gone global, as communism would have died and Russia would have left the war - this is why I put my bets in hitler, and now it makes sense why our modern society run by the you know who’s consider him devil himself
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thats just my theory though
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I spent a little time today to see if I could find any relatively recent news of Jacob Pius/Pang Jian. I could not. Bumping as a reminder to pray for his resolve and perseverance, if he is still alive.
ETA: for anyone who didn't go back to the OP, this thread is about a Chinese CI user who was imprisoned (and presumably still imprisoned, if he is still alive) by the CCP for promoting a separatist Catholic state.
:pray::pray::pray:
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Yeah, poor man. Betrayed by Bergoglio like the rest of the actual Catholics in China.
:pray: :pray: :pray: