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Author Topic: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX  (Read 1662 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

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Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2025, 09:42:50 AM »
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  • Does the SSPX accept this?

    Would the SSPX faithful accept this?

    Would YOU accept this?

    1: I believe they would.

    2: At least 70% would, if not more.

    3: Not a chance in Hell that I would accept this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #16 on: May 14, 2025, 09:49:55 AM »
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  • I'd say 90%+ of the SSPX laity and 95%+ of the priests (since they have all been pre-vetted as yes-men as a condition for ordination and would have been weeded out for any independent thinking ... leaving only the old-timers who haven't left yet either for Resistance, SV, or Motarian group).

    But then the vast majority of these majorities wouldn't actually leave their chapel or position as priests unless they were directly affected, i.e. one of these new "priests" showed up to serve their chapel.  That's ALREADY going on now, as NO presiders are brought in without conditional ordination, but even the faithful who don't approve will not leave until they're directly affected (one of those priests shows up on a Sunday at their chapel).  So in a sense it's already going on ... and won't be anything new, which speaks to my point that they've already been being preconditioned to more-or-less accept this.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #17 on: May 14, 2025, 09:57:09 AM »
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  • ... leaving only the old-timers who haven't left yet either for Resistance, SV, or Motarian group.
    Motarian group.


    Focusing on that, I find it interesting that, although immersed in V2 theology at Wigratzbad or Denton, these days a significant number of FSSP priests (or putative priests) are theologically and politically further to the Right than their SSPX counterparts.

    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #18 on: May 14, 2025, 10:02:01 AM »
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  • No, incorrect to all that you have written here regarding historical practice.

    How a man is ordained is something about which the Church has always been meticulous. Whilst there are and have been a variety of liturgicals rites for ordination, these all share common elements and similar wording in their forms.

    Nepotism pertained to ecclesiastical offices and benefices (salaries and material goods). This is something quite different than entrance and advancement in the clerical state. Simony (buying sacraments) was an issue with ordination in certain places at particular times, but this is something very different from nepotism.

    The problem with the 1968 ordination rite lies in changes in the essential form that alter what is being bestowed on the candidate as well as in changes to the ritual actions and language before and after the form, changes that fail to express a Catholic understanding of Holy Orders.

    The form for the rite of priestly ordination has been changed so that what was once a cause leading to an effect is now merely two declaratory statements. This casts doubt on the validity.

    The change in the form for episcopal ordination is far more radical, changing the whole wording and never indicating that the episcopacy is being bestowed. This form could be wholly invalid, needs to be treated as such (with all that implies), and may be one day definitively declared invalid by the Church.
    The SSPX does a good job of explaining the rites such that there's little doubt left, if any. Bp. Williamson doesn't doubt them, he's just willing to conditionally ordain to put the mind of the faithful at ease. I still doubt the intentions, that the intention may be to cause invalidity at least long enough that future deceived generations don't really have Holy Orders even though they think they do. I think the doubt exists sufficiently that it is not work risking invalidity for the sake of politics. At the same time, it is only a doubt for me, and I am not convinced that the whole conciliar church is invalid. I don't know to what extent these things are possible, or what God may allow and how, just that I want no part of the conciliar church.

    If they did go through with it, that sends a message to people that the indult and conciliar Church are valid, so why risk being schismatic or whatever by playing this R&R game, and suffer attending distant little chapels with little to no community life?

    I think word would spread around such that many would either go to mass at the Resistance or Sedes, or if they stay, it is for convenience sake only, while they remain watchful for who says Mass there.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #19 on: May 14, 2025, 10:07:05 AM »
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  • The SSPX does a good job of explaining the rites such that there's little doubt left, if any.

    No they don't.  They explain them away and there's only "little doubt" left if you're wanting to accept their explanation in the first place.  It's not even close to being convincing.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #20 on: May 14, 2025, 10:08:28 AM »
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  • Bp. Williamson doesn't doubt them, he's just willing to conditionally ordain to put the mind of the faithful at ease.

    Not quite.  He says that he PERSONALLY doesn't doubt them but can see why others might, so he distinguishes his personal non-doubt from an objective non-doubt.  In other words, by not conditionally ordaining, he'd effectively be imposing his conclusions on other people's consciences.  So it isn't just to pacify a bunch of people with negative doubts.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #21 on: May 14, 2025, 10:12:53 AM »
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  • I still doubt the intentions ...

    You've got this exactly ass backwards, as you do most things.  As per the teaching of Pope Leo XIII himself in Apostolicae Curae, that's the one thing that CANNOT be doubted (absent clear evidence to the contrary), since the Church always presumes correct intention.  What's at issue is she intention of the Rite.  If the Rite expresses the Catholic intention, then it's valid.  If the Rite does not, it's not valid ... and no amount of intending or wishing it to be valid can remedy this situation.  You can't "wish it into" validity by "intending really really hard".  Just a bunch of hogwash SSPX have been selling and which you're buying because you want to buy it ... as you do regarding a lot of subjects.  Nor is the Rite "ambiguous", as a Rite must UNEQUIVOCALLY express the Sacramental intention (as per every Sacramental theologian), and there's no scenario in which a Rite does not do this unequivocally and then some minister can intend it into validity, supplying by their internal forum intention that which is lacking in the external.

    SSPX have reversed a lot of the terms and created a soup of nonsensical gibberish to produce they outcome they wanted.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #22 on: May 14, 2025, 10:16:57 AM »
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  • Motarian group.


    Focusing on that, I find it interesting that, although immersed in V2 theology at Wigratzbad or Denton, these days a significant number of FSSP priests (or putative priests) are theologically and politically further to the Right than their SSPX counterparts.

    I've made the same remarks.  You see more sermons (judging from what's online) denouncing various evils of the Conciliar Church from FSSP priests than from SSPX ... and then more FSSP priests spoke out about the COVID jab and other societal and political evils than those in SSPX.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #23 on: May 14, 2025, 10:18:44 AM »
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  • Right.  The intention of the priest/bishop DOES NOT MATTER.  What matters are the WORDS of the rite.  The WORDS of the rite = the Church's intention.  The Church's intention is all that matters.

    The new rite changed the WORDS, therefore the intention (of the words) changed.  Therefore there's doubt.

    The new-sspx/indulters want to concentrate on the PERSONAL intentions of the priest/bishop.  This is bad theology and is irrelevant.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #24 on: May 14, 2025, 10:38:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    Does the SSPX accept this?

    Would the SSPX faithful accept this?

    Would YOU accept this?


    1: I believe they would.

    2: At least 70% would, if not more.

    3: Not a chance in Hell that I would accept this.
    I agree with your 2 and 3, and I tend to agree with your #1, yet, were it to come to that, it's hard to believe the SSPX would accept it considering +ABL did the consecrating of his bishops to insure future valid priestly ordinations for his SSPX.

     But we can't forget that at the same time, +ABL himself asked repeatedly for a NO bishop from the V2 church to consecrate his bishops - and the pope refused to give him one, but he would have accepted had he been given one, so there's that.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #25 on: May 14, 2025, 10:44:04 AM »
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  • I suspect the SSPX hierarchy would accept if the consecrations were in the traditional formula.  If I'm just throwing numbers out, 80% of the priests and 60-70% of the laity would as well. I do think there are many more resistance-minded and sedevacantist mass attendees at society chapels than some may assume, being there out of necessity rather than ecclesiological accord with the Society. 
    I would not accept, and if the chapel I go to got a priest of dubious orders I would have to go to an Eastern liturgy or travel an extra 2 hours to a non-Society chapel 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #26 on: May 14, 2025, 01:24:43 PM »
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  • SsPX trains NO lay priests in Denver. I heard quite a few members of St. Isidore left and go the CMRI. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #27 on: May 14, 2025, 01:48:54 PM »
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  • Right.  The intention of the priest/bishop DOES NOT MATTER.  What matters are the WORDS of the rite.  The WORDS of the rite = the Church's intention.  The Church's intention is all that matters.

    The new rite changed the WORDS, therefore the intention (of the words) changed.  Therefore there's doubt.

    The new-sspx/indulters want to concentrate on the PERSONAL intentions of the priest/bishop.  This is bad theology and is irrelevant.

    Yes, Pope Leo XIII made this very clear in Apostolicae Curae.
    Quote
    33. With this inherent defect of “form” is joined the defect of “intention” which is equally essential to the Sacrament. The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.

    So it's not the intention of the minister (which is by its nature internal) ... and which is presumed if the Catholic Rite is used ... but the intention of the Rite that's in question.  If the Rite is changed with the "manifest intention ... of rejecting what the Church does", then this invalidates the intention of the Rite, regardless of what the minister intends in the internal forum.

    Earlier, he wrote about the intention of the Rite, i.e. the reason it was composed ... and his words could hauntingly be applied verbatim to the Conciliar Rites:
    Quote
    30. For the full and accurate understanding of the Anglican Ordinal, besides what we have noted as to some of its parts, there is nothing more pertinent than to consider carefully the circuмstances under which it was composed and publicly authorized. It would be tedious to enter into details, nor is it necessary to do so, as the history of that time is sufficiently eloquent as to the animus of the authors of the Ordinal against the Catholic Church; as to the abettors whom they associated with themselves from the heterodox sects; and as to the end they had in view. Being fully cognizant of the necessary connection between faith and worship, between “the law of believing and the law of praying”, under a pretext of returning to the primitive form, they corrupted the Liturgical Order in many ways to suit the errors of the reformers. For this reason, in the whole Ordinal not only is there no clear mention of the sacrifice, of consecration, of the priesthood (sacerdotium), and of the power of consecrating and offering sacrifice but, as we have just stated, every trace of these things which had been in such prayers of the Catholic rite as they had not entirely rejected, was deliberately removed and struck out.

    How is this not exactly what Montini et al did?  They associated with abettors from the heterodox sects (the Prot ministers helping to write the NOM, anyone?), using the pretextt of returning to the primitive form (check!), they corrupted the Rite to "suit the errors of the reformers" (again check!)  No only is there no clear mention of sacrifice, preisthood, etc. ... but every trace of these things which had been in the Catholic Rite was deliberately removed and struck out.  These words of Leo XIII are prophetic and could have been applied verbatim to the NOM.


    Quote
    31. In this way, the native character or spirit as it is called of the Ordinal clearly manifests itself. Hence, if, vitiated in its origin, it was wholly insufficient to confer Orders, it was impossible that, in the course of time, it would become sufficient, since no change had taken place. In vain those who, from the time of Charles I, have attempted to hold some kind of sacrifice or of priesthood, have made additions to the Ordinal. In vain also has been the contention of that small section of the Anglican body formed in recent times that the said Ordinal can be understood and interpreted in a sound and orthodox sense. Such efforts, we affirm, have been, and are, made in vain, and for this reason, that any words in the Anglican Ordinal, as it now is, which lend themselves to ambiguity, cannot be taken in the same sense as they possess in the Catholic rite. For once a new rite has been initiated in which, as we have seen, the Sacrament of Order is adulterated or denied, and from which all idea of consecration and sacrifice has been rejected, the formula, “Receive the Holy Ghost”, no longer holds good, because the Spirit is infused into the soul with the grace of the Sacrament, and so the words “for the office and work of a priest or bishop”, and the like no longer hold good, but remain as words without the reality which Christ instituted.

    32. Many of the more shrewd Anglican interpreters of the Ordinal have perceived the force of this argument, and they openly urge it against those who take the Ordinal in a new sense, and vainly attach to the Orders conferred thereby a value and efficacy which they do not possess. By this same argument is refuted the contention of those who think that the prayer, “Almighty God, giver of all good Things”, which is found at the beginning of the ritual action, might suffice as a legitimate “form” of Orders, even in the hypothesis that it might be held to be sufficient in a Catholic rite approved by the Church.

    So not only did changes they tried to introduce later not rescue the Rite, since it was vitiated in its Origins (due to the initial intention of removing Catholic elements to appease the heretical sects), but Leo XIII absolutely and expliciltly rejects the argument (first bolded section above) that it CAN BE UNDERSTOOD AND INTERPRETED IN A SOUND AND ORTHODOX SENSE.  In other words, it's ambiguous and CAN be understood in a Catholic sense ... the very position of SSPX, where then with the proper "internal" intention that nobody, not even the Church, can even know about, it could be rendered invalid.

    So in the context of this Rite that was intended to reject the clear sense of the Catholic Church regarding the Rite (second bolded section), any argument that this or that section COULD suffice to legitimately express the Catholic meaning is rejected due to the overall context of the Rite.

    So, the Rite, the reason it was composed, where Catholic elements were removed, etc. rendered the intention of the Rite invalid and not salvageable by someone who would impose some Catholic interpretation onto some ambiguous element within it.  That overall context vitiates any ambiguous sections that could be Catholicized by the right intention.

    You'd think the SSPXers had never read Apostolicae Curae, one of the most comprehensive explanations of Catholic theology available regarding the validity of Rites and stamped by Magisterial authority.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #28 on: May 14, 2025, 01:57:23 PM »
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  • Headline:  Leo XIII declares Leo XIV to Not Be a Valid Priest

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Great Episcopal Dilemma for the SSPX
    « Reply #29 on: May 14, 2025, 02:44:15 PM »
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  • Headline:  Leo XIII declares Leo XIV to Not Be a Valid Priest
    :laugh1:  Sad but true.