Backed by popular demand.

*Lots of $ in donations - to tornado damage in OK for instance, etc. Catholic Charities
*Catholic schools - basic Catholic teaching and action.
*Valid sacraments. (Some trads disagree)
*Produce Catholic communities which work together.
*Visible presence in society - anti-abortion events and groups, anti-drug programs, promoting abstinence only programs, etc.
*Basic tenets of Catholicism still taught.
*Still converting many to Catholicism (streetevangelization.com)
*Still inspiring apologists to combat atheism (The Godless Delusion, etc.)
*Still opposed to gαy marriage (exceptions and many tolerating, yes)
*Church still enforces rules - cracking down on nuns, etc. (may be selectively)


The list goes on. Caution against throwing out the baby with the bathwater and focussing ONLY on the negative.

My comments in blue.

Backed by popular demand.

*Lots of $ in donations - to tornado damage in OK for instance, etc. Catholic Charities

Plenty of non-Catholics, even non-Christians donate to charitable causes

*Catholic schools - basic Catholic teaching and action.

Either you have never been to a 'Catholic' school or you don't know what Catholic means-- no offense.  This comment is just simply false even to a casual observer (though I did attend a NO school for a few years

*Valid sacraments. (Some trads disagree)

Yes, some would!  But the Orthodox also have valid sacraments.  Doesn't make them Catholic

*Produce Catholic communities which work together.

For what?  Religious liberty?

*Visible presence in society - anti-abortion events and groups, anti-drug programs, promoting abstinence only programs, etc.

The reason it is 'visible' is that the NO Church members outnumber traditionalists a million to one.  No traditionalist supports abortion, drug abuse or premarital sex

*Basic tenets of Catholicism still taught.

Not really.

*Still converting many to Catholicism (streetevangelization.com)

That is debatable

*Still inspiring apologists to combat atheism (The Godless Delusion, etc.)

Plenty of protestants do the same

*Still opposed to gαy marriage (exceptions and many tolerating, yes)

Ibid.

*Church still enforces rules - cracking down on nuns, etc. (may be selectively)

Barely.


The list goes on. But there is nothing about it uniquely Catholic.  Caution against throwing out the baby with the bathwater and focussing ONLY on the negative.  Caution against pulling exceptions out of a hat to create a rule-- the NO church is bile rot, friend.  

Not hostile to tradition. Although progressivists are misguided, there IS a way to "move forward". I said "basic Catholic teachings" which is true, I think it's definitely a distortion to say they don't teach the 10 commandments or about the Fall, etc. - I speak on experience of having gone to Novus Ordo schools up through college. In fairness to traditional critique, they often teach modernist garbage, tolerate sins, are sloppy, etc. Conservative Novus Ordo still gets basic teachings out there though.

Will someone add on good things the conciliar church is doing? That's extremely distorted thinking to say they're doing NOTHING good. Challenge: everyone add ONE GOOD THING the conciliar church is doing! I agree they're doing a lot of bad things which need to be addressed, yet it is just this distorted thinking that turns away conciliar Catholics from tradition. Who wants to join traditional groups who judge conciliar Catholics (even if they judge justly)? A lot of those people may not even think they're doing anything wrong and don't understand what they're doing wrong, and I haven't seen traditionalists instructing them much. They may be like misguided children, patience with them is needed. You know that Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". Also, that Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery - who was without sin to condemn her? Neither did Jesus condemn her. However, some Novus Ordo ARE knowingly guilty - is this more often than not? Depends on the person and issue, probably.

In comparing the conciliar Church to protestant churches, you still aren't refuting that they're doing good - lots of good, to the tune of millions of people.

There is plenty about the conciliar church that is uniquely Catholic. No woman priests, no contraception, no gαy marriage, etc. Seriously, trads are really distorting these things out of proportion, and it can work to the detriment of traditional causes. They have seen the conciliar church be "catholic" in theory only and thrown in the towel after experiencing abuse after abuse after abuse. But what about correcting the abuses? I mean it can really be easy to retire to the monastery or small sede chapel, in this respect - they're not dealing with governing MILLIONS of people.

One must acknowledge the problem of politics in all of this. I know a lot of people are conspiracy theorists out there in this trad world. If the popes take drastic traditional action, they will lose progressivists in the Church as well as maybe put themselves up for martyrdom by secular mobsters. Do you realize this, that if they take a stand, they could be done for? There is something of rationality in what is going on governed by worldly forces. You may say, "well, they should have courage and sacrifice themselves!" Ok, possibly true - maybe God's not calling them to do that though, eh? The Church may be being led to its crucifixion, its end time. Jesus submitted to his crucifixion. Is it possible the recent popes have been just as power-less?

So, I'm just entertaining these possibilities here. This ain't like the past ages of the Church. The Church is the largest it ever has been (or was up until Vatican 2) and IS dealing with new, modern problems and arrangements. It may take different policies and organization to work with a Church so large. The Church is also dealing with more powerful secular organizations which have become emboldened as the spread of sin increases in the world. Again, if you've been in politics, taking a "hard line" stance just makes you look insane these days. The conciliar Church COULD do that, but if it does, there are predictable disastrous results, which is why all it can do is basically take lukewarm action and be crucified in a sense.

Pray for our world and the salvation of souls!

Not hostile to tradition. Although progressivists are misguided, there IS a way to "move forward"

No No No No

There is no way to move forward.

Not hostile to tradition. Although progressivists are misguided, there IS a way to "move forward". I said "basic Catholic teachings" which is true, I think it's definitely a distortion to say they don't teach the 10 commandments or about the Fall, etc. - I speak on experience of having gone to Novus Ordo schools up through college. In fairness to traditional critique, they often teach modernist garbage, tolerate sins, are sloppy, etc. Conservative Novus Ordo still gets basic teachings out there though.

Will someone add on good things the conciliar church is doing? That's extremely distorted thinking to say they're doing NOTHING good. Challenge: everyone add ONE GOOD THING the conciliar church is doing! I agree they're doing a lot of bad things which need to be addressed, yet it is just this distorted thinking that turns away conciliar Catholics from tradition. Who wants to join traditional groups who judge conciliar Catholics (even if they judge justly)? A lot of those people may not even think they're doing anything wrong and don't understand what they're doing wrong, and I haven't seen traditionalists instructing them much. They may be like misguided children, patience with them is needed. You know that Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". Also, that Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery - who was without sin to condemn her? Neither did Jesus condemn her. However, some Novus Ordo ARE knowingly guilty - is this more often than not? Depends on the person and issue, probably.

In comparing the conciliar Church to protestant churches, you still aren't refuting that they're doing good - lots of good, to the tune of millions of people.

There is plenty about the conciliar church that is uniquely Catholic. No woman priests, no contraception, no gαy marriage, etc. Seriously, trads are really distorting these things out of proportion, and it can work to the detriment of traditional causes. They have seen the conciliar church be "catholic" in theory only and thrown in the towel after experiencing abuse after abuse after abuse. But what about correcting the abuses? I mean it can really be easy to retire to the monastery or small sede chapel, in this respect - they're not dealing with governing MILLIONS of people.

One must acknowledge the problem of politics in all of this. I know a lot of people are conspiracy theorists out there in this trad world. If the popes take drastic traditional action, they will lose progressivists in the Church as well as maybe put themselves up for martyrdom by secular mobsters. Do you realize this, that if they take a stand, they could be done for? There is something of rationality in what is going on governed by worldly forces. You may say, "well, they should have courage and sacrifice themselves!" Ok, possibly true - maybe God's not calling them to do that though, eh? The Church may be being led to its crucifixion, its end time. Jesus submitted to his crucifixion. Is it possible the recent popes have been just as power-less?

So, I'm just entertaining these possibilities here. This ain't like the past ages of the Church. The Church is the largest it ever has been (or was up until Vatican 2) and IS dealing with new, modern problems and arrangements. It may take different policies and organization to work with a Church so large. The Church is also dealing with more powerful secular organizations which have become emboldened as the spread of sin increases in the world. Again, if you've been in politics, taking a "hard line" stance just makes you look insane these days. The conciliar Church COULD do that, but if it does, there are predictable disastrous results, which is why all it can do is basically take lukewarm action and be crucified in a sense.

Pray for our world and the salvation of souls!

Who gave this a thumbs up?

Like I said they are trying to change the narrative. It's crazy nonsense.

Challenge: everyone add ONE GOOD THING the conciliar church is doing!

They are still closing their churches left and right.

- I speak on experience of having gone to Novus Ordo schools up through college.

"In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a king".

First have to educate yourself about what tradition means, then compare your Novus Ordo church to the Catholic Church in 1200, 1500, 1800, 1900, 1957. Then you will understand why THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Everything they do today regarding the faith is not Catholic. ALL the sacraments, the mass, the formula for the consecration of bishops, everything has been changed. They teach mandatory  sex education in Catholic schools.

REALIZE that everyone in "Novus Ordo World" is blind, including practically all of the bishops (they've lost the faith or they've lost their marbles). There are only a few that are one eyed, and those would be the ones that occasionally teach the true faith here and there. Benedict XVI was an example of a one eyed man, so would be Bishop Bruskewitz  of Lincoln, Nebraska. They are kings only because they are not totally blind, that is not saying much. Compared to Pius IX, X, XI, XII, they are not even Catholic.

The conciliar church doesn't teach the whole faith, they only teach a mixture of part faith and mostly modernism. You can learn as much of the faith from protestants. I went to the Novus Ordo for religious instruction when I was younger and I did not learn the faith.