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Offline trad123

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Contradiction?
« on: October 30, 2011, 04:12:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    Canon 2261.2 speaks about when the sacraments are valid AND licit, while Canon 2261.3 speaks of them when both are lacking. There is no room for a third position on the sacraments, so with Canon 2264 speaks of validity while being "illicit" it must be speaking of jurisdiction apart from the sacraments. But this seems to contradict Leo XIII. I am very confused


    Do you mean to say there doesn't seem to be a third position of the sacraments performed validly, but administered illicitly?, because that's the situation with the Eastern schismatics. They have valid orders, and if they use correct matter and form their sacraments are valid, but they do not possess the power to rule.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Contradiction?
    « Reply #1 on: October 30, 2011, 04:22:13 PM »
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  • Ah, I guess that actually doesn't apply to the sacrament of penance, though, unless someone is in danger of death.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

    Quote
    For valid administration [of the sacrament of penance], a twofold power is necessary: the power of order and the power of jurisdiction. The former is conferred by ordination, the latter by ecclesiastical authority (see JURISDICTION). At his ordination a priest receives the power to consecrate the Holy Eucharist, and for valid consecration he needs no jurisdiction. As regards penance, the case is different: "because the nature and character of a judgment requires that sentence be pronounced only on those who are subjects (of the judge) the Church of God has always held, and this Council affirms it to be most true, that the absolution which a priest pronounces upon one over whom he has not either ordinary or delegated jurisdiction, is of no effect" (Council of Trent, Sess. XIV, c. 7). Ordinary jurisdiction is that which one has by reason of his office as involving the care of souls; the pope has it over the whole Church, the bishop within his diocese, the pastor within his parish. Delegated jurisdiction is that which is granted by an ecclesiastical superior to one who does not possess it by virtue of his office. The need of jurisdiction for administering this sacrament is usually expressed by saying that a priest must have "faculties" to hear confession (see FACULTIES). Hence it is that a priest visiting in a diocese other than his own cannot hear confession without special authorization from the bishop. Every priest, however, can absolve anyone who is at the point of death, because under those circumstances the Church gives all priests jurisdiction. As the bishop grants jurisdiction, he can also limit it by "reserving" certain cases (see RESERVATION) and he can even withdraw it entirely.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Contradiction?
    « Reply #2 on: October 30, 2011, 04:25:14 PM »
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  • I thought that was the case, but only in danger of death.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Contradiction?
    « Reply #3 on: October 30, 2011, 04:47:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    So this canon is not talking about churches separate from Rome, for it speaks of "condemnatory or declaratory sentence" which are no needed for the Eastern Orthodox.


    Well, there's those who are excommunicated and those who are excommunicated after a declaratory sentence.

    The first are those who espouse public heresy or join condemned sects, the second would be someone like Fr. Feeney who was suspended a divinis, which I understand to mean that he was barred from administering the sacraments, I do not think he was cut off from the Church.

    Eastern schismatics are excommunicated ipso facto, without any sentence. The Greeks deny the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son, and with the Russians refuse to submit themselves to the Roman Pontiff.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Contradiction?
    « Reply #4 on: October 30, 2011, 04:48:05 PM »
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  • In the case of Luther, his excommunication cast him outside the Church.

    Edit: oops, just remembered this:

    http://strobertbellarmine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=970

    Quote
    Thesis: notorious heretics are not members of the Church.

    Obj. 1: Heretics are excommunicated after their notorious heresy. Ergo they are not outside the Church because of the heresy itself.

    Resp: I distinguish the Major, (public heretics are excommunicated) to manifest the heresy and to add some effects to the excommunication, such as civil ones, I conc., to exclude them from the Church, I deny.

    NB: Theologians usually take the words manifest and public as synonymous. This is not the only case.


    Nvm, about that.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Contradiction?
    « Reply #5 on: October 30, 2011, 04:51:06 PM »
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  • In the quote, "to manifest the heresy" is to manifest it in law.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

     

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