Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Elena on June 09, 2014, 08:37:53 PM
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I posted this elsewhere by accident, on the right topic, but it was buried at the end of a thread. I'm adding it as its own topic so that the proponents of baptism of desire can get a closer look at the problems with this theory. Sorry folks, baptism of desire is not a doctrine, not a dogma. This according to Father Peter Stravinskas, a novus ordite of some repute that really believes in baptism of desire, and who is no stranger to the particulars of doctrine. He told me personally to my face it was not doctrine. Not a totally reliable theologian, but even he couldn't (at the time) make the case for BOD being a doctrine of the Church.
Note: Doctrines are clearly explained, unambiguous, held unanimously. BOD is downright contrary and held by very few, some of which abandoned the idea in their later lives, like St. Augustine.
As a preface, I am not sedevacantist, or Feeneyite. I attend the Latin Mass at an SSPX chapel.
To Father Kramer,
Do you believe that the novus ordo mass is just another form of the mass, or a counterfeit? Satan uses counterfeits to subtly pass for the original. Often, we know because Church teaching is obviously opposed to a counterfeit, like Protestant churches or pastors. (Note that or is inclusive here) Sometimes, we know simply because of the fruits of the counterfeit. Let's consider some of the fruits of baptism of desire.
The one good "fruit" of baptism of desire (BOD) they say, is salvation. But can it deliver the salvation promised? BOD is not a formal teaching of the church and not a doctrine. Consider some of the other fruits of BOD, all of which are destructive to the faith. Below is a partial list of the fruits of BOD.
By their fruits you will know them.... Mathew 7:16
THE FRUITS OF BAPTISM OF DESIRE
Baptism of desire (BOD) automatically denies the necessity of the sacrament of baptism for salvation.
BOD mocks the sacrament of baptism because it is not a sacrament. It is not an outward sign instituted by Christ. It is not a gateway to the other sacraments, does not remit sin, does not impart the baptismal character, all things the church teaches are part of justification and necessary for salvation, and which are the very characteristics of true baptism.
BOD promotes the Protestant heresy that faith alone saves.
BOD leads many Catholics to believe abortion is a source of hope for infants since infants are not guilty of actual sin.
BOD contradicts the Catholic teaching: One Lord, one faith, one baptism, since, BOD, by definition, is not the same as baptism, but another baptism entirely.
Advocates admit BOD does not make one a member of the Church. The church teaches infallibly that there is no salvation outside the Church, so BOD cannot save.
BOD promotes laxity and indifferentism because many Catholics often rest in another's desire for heaven rather than do the work to help get the person baptized.
BOD is nothing like baptism because the grace is not assured.
BOD is nothing like baptism because the water and words are unnecessary.
BOD attempts to reward perseverance in sin.
BOD is not a sacrament, nor has it been defined, yet BOD is said to replace baptism, the one sacrament that is necessary for salvation.
BOD suggests the God is impotent, because due to circuŠ¼stance, the Almighty might not be able to provide the water.
BOD implies God is not author of life and death because people meet their death in an untimely manner, before they can receive true baptism.
BOD makes liars of popes and saints who teach no one who dies outside the Catholic Church is saved.
BOD is said to save some outside the Church, making the doctrine of "No Salvation Outside the Church" a false teaching.
BOD mocks the Holy Spirit Who tells us in scripture to be washed for the remission of sins when baptism of desire neither remits sin, nor employs water.
BOD makes Jesus a liar, Who says: "Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema".
BOD mocks scripture 1 Peter 3:21 a verse that says "baptism now saves you" by pretending that an unprovided death can do the same.
BOD undermines the Council of Trent which took great care to define the form and matter of baptism in very specific detail.
BOD denies the teaching that a person must be baptized by another.
BOD denies this canon in Trent: "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ: 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, let him be anathema' by removing the need for water.
BOD is a fine example of how one twists into a metaphor the words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, let him be anathema."
BOD voids another infallible canon in Trent that states: "If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema."
BOD by its very definition undermines Christ's missionary mandate.
BOD suggests God is unmerciful unless He contradicts His Word and Church teaching and provide salvation without baptism.
BOD is a nothing more than Satan's counterfeit for a necessary sacrament.
Note: I have a revised version of this on youtube called Fruits of Baptism of Desire.
--Elena
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Welcome to Cathinfo, Elena!
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Welcome to Cathinfo, Elena!
Thank you!