Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION  (Read 4145 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 48090
  • Reputation: +28392/-5309
  • Gender: Male
Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 12:48:23 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Honestly, this thread needs to be put out of its misery and simply deleted.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4232
    • Reputation: +2467/-532
    • Gender: Male
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 08:10:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A rite produced by a heretic (Montini) enjoys no presumption of validity, especially one that goes contrary to what a true pope taught is necessary for validity only a couple of decades prior.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48090
    • Reputation: +28392/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 09:34:33 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • A rite produced by a heretic (Montini) enjoys no presumption of validity, especially one that goes contrary to what a true pope taught is necessary for validity only a couple of decades prior.

    So, indeed a Rite promulgated by a legitimate Pope would come with a guarantee (not merely presumption) of validity, but that's part of the question, isn't it?

    If one held Montini to be a legitimate Pope, then what Pius XII said about the Prior Rite is not relevant, as all he did was take the existing Rite and settle a debate about what constituted the essential matter and form (since there was some debate among theologians).  Matter & Form in a different Rite altogether would not be the same.  So, for instance, had Montini been a legitimate Pope and he had merely adopted the Maronite Rite for use by the Roman Rite, the matter and essential form would obviously be different than what Pius XII had designated.  In other words, what he designated was not an absolute, but was specific the Prior Rite.

    Now, he did lay down some principles within it such as that there had to be an invocation of the Holy Ghost and an unequivocal statement regarding the Sacramental effect of that invocation.  That's where the New Rite's removal of "ut" causes a serious problem, even though SSPX gaslight this issue with "it's only two letters", yeah, so is "is", and the word "not" are only 3 letters, but those words can make all the difference in th world.

    "ut" means so that and precisely indicates that what comes after it was caused by what came before it, i.e. the cause (Holy Ghost coming down) leading to the (Sacramental) effect, making this man into a priest.  One might try to argue that it's implied, but that contention would be insufficient to dispel the very low bar of positive doubt.

    But the bigger problem comes from Pope Leo XIII's Apostolicae Curae, in which he clearly laid out principles that even IF the essential form were corrected (Anglicans tried to desperately fix it), the history and intention of the Rite itself, as evidenced by removing all references to the priest's power to offer the Holy Sacrifice, to make them not contrary to the errors of the "reformers", had been vitiated, and the Rite was therefore irredeemable.  If you compare the Old and New, you see the very same thing going on, where there's a removal of all references to the priest being able to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass ... where the Conciliars admit that their intention was the same, so as not to cause offense to the heretical views of the priesthood.  Now, I think there was a deeper sinister motive, a deliberate intention to destroy and to invalidate, but we needn't rely upon that, as their stated motives were already in line with what Pope Leo XIII had declared invalidated the Anglican Ordinal.

    In the practical Order, howeve,r it's almost moot, since the Rite of Episcopal Consecration is almost certainly invalid, but easily show to be positively doubtful at the very least.

    Offline Romulus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 524
    • Reputation: +323/-62
    • Gender: Male
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #18 on: Today at 10:25:11 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • The armchair theologians have a new weapon...ChatGPT. No longer do they have to do any thinking or their own research and writing, all they need is a prompt for their AI engine and will publish the results as their own.

    Offline Horatius

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 43
    • Reputation: +60/-34
    • Gender: Male
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #19 on: Today at 10:53:39 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The armchair theologians have a new weapon...ChatGPT. No longer do they have to do any thinking or their own research and writing, all they need is a prompt for their AI engine and will publish the results as their own.
    My goodness, I was reading through this thread wondering when someone was going to point out that this "forensic audit" was garbage that had been vomited out by AI. 

    And yes, this entire explanation, as Ladislaus already said, is incoherent word salad. Practically all of the so-called terms distinctions in this text are specious and have nothing to do with scholastic theology. This guy really posted this nonsense and expects us all to think it's serious. Valor and validitas mean different things when discussing the sacraments? Are you serious? Have you ever read any manuals of sacramental theology? I gather you haven't because you would know that "ad valorem sacramenti" and "ad validitatem sacramenti" mean the same thing. Please take this stuff down, people read this website and are scandalised in their faith, all because people who don't know what they're talking about pontificate about the most important questions of our faith. 

    And now AI is enabling these fools to generate more confusing garbage more amply.

    Good grief.


    Online Twice dyed

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 886
    • Reputation: +337/-32
    • Gender: Male
    • Violet, purple, and scarlet twice dyed. EX: 35, 6.
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #20 on: Today at 12:12:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, this is the second time (at least), where very impressive articles are posted, and then the "bad odor" fills the mind. Naturally we equate eloquence with intelligence. 
    Reminds me of Seminarian Carl U. in Winona...'89. As a seminarian, due to his charisma, he would present conferences to his fellow seminarians. One day, having lunch in the refectory, a seminarian was praising Carl U. "U. just delivered a great conference, it was Soooooo good!" Then someone asked: " Oh. And what was it about?"   The guy replied: " I can't remember, but he said it so beautifully!."  :facepalm:
    We will have to render account for every idle word, says Our Lord.
    Blessed Christmastide to all. Jesus is born in Bethehem.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48090
    • Reputation: +28392/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #21 on: Today at 12:14:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My goodness, I was reading through this thread wondering when someone was going to point out that this "forensic audit" was garbage that had been vomited out by AI.

    Well ... I didn't catch that it was AI, since the OP had created an equally nonsensical "monograph" concluding that the election of Bergoglio had been invalid due to a phrase in JP2's Universi Dominici Gregis which stipulated that the prior pope had to have had his funeral rites concluded prior to beginning the Conclave, and since Ratzinger had not died, the Conclave was illegitimate.  I pointed out in the Latin of UDG that it uses a subjunctive mood, with the notion that "funeral rites ... IF ANY", and that the docuмent speaks earlier of vacation of the office by death or resignation, which would be rendered nonsensical, since resignation would require that the See remain vacant until the resigned Pope had died and been buried.

    But the OP here has continued to cling to that absurd conclusion for years now.

    But thanks for also realizing the obvious reality that the random concatenation of various polysyllabic terms resulted in meaningless word salad and non-sensical non-arguments, where the words that he stuck together didn't even go together.

    I was tempted to post this earlier, since it's rather fitting in response to the OP.  But until other people chimed in unsure of why it was nonsense, I didn't feel it was necessary to respond in any kind of detail.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48090
    • Reputation: +28392/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: 1968 RITE OF PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    « Reply #22 on: Today at 12:28:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, this is the second time (at least), where very impressive articles are posted, and then the "bad odor" fills the mind. Naturally we equate eloquence with intelligence.
    Reminds me of Seminarian Carl U. in Winona...'89. As a seminarian, due to his charisma, he would present conferences to his fellow seminarians. One day, having lunch in the refectory, a seminarian was praising Carl U. "U. just delivered a great conference, it was Soooooo good!" Then someone asked: " Oh. And what was it about?"  The guy replied: " I can't remember, but he said it so beautifully!."  :facepalm:
    We will have to render account for every idle word, says Our Lord.
    Blessed Christmastide to all. Jesus is born in Bethehem.

    So, you mean Carlos U, right?

    I had a serious problem in general with His Excellency having allowed Urrutigoity to take various leadership / teaching / mentorship roles like that at the seminary ... and at the time I had not even been aware of the prior warning from Archbishop Lefebvre to "watch him like a hawk" and especially, per Fr. Morello, to keep an eye on his attempting to form particular friendships.

    Urrutigoity had this core "inner circle" of cult followers, most of whom would later follow him over to the Society of St. John ... and this was painfully obvious to everyone there, and should have immediately set off major alarm bells for anyone tasked with watching him like a hawk regarding particular friendships.

    He repeatedly tried to pull me into his circle, but I kept my distance, politely, simply by staying away unless required.  So, at one point, in addition to the two scholas that would alternate practicing the Chant for High Masses, I think it may have been those of St. Basil and St. Gregory (not sure, as those might just be the classroom names) ... but in addition, Urrutigoity decided to form this super-special schola (by invitation only) named the St. Pius X schola, and it was supposed to be for the better singers, although I questioned some of its members.  He inducted me into this one, and kept trying to get me to attend his conferences, go on little adventures that he has permission to go on, etc.  I just no-showed on a regular basis.  In retrospect, I'm very grateful, since knowing what I know now, his behavior could very well have been an attempt to groom me (when I was young).  At one point we had to sing an arrangement of Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah, and in an arrangement (allegedly) for men, the soprano voices would be rendered for tenor, but it was an extremely high tenor that nobody could actually reach, and so he basically had us singing it in a falsetto, and I personally found it humiliating ... but, again, in retrospect, it was undoubtedly quite deliberate, since he got a kick out of young men attempting to sing like females.  You can find arrangements that don't stretch the tenor voices so high.

    Thankfully, unlike some other seminarians later on who woke up to find Urrutigoity laying next to them in bed fondling their privates ... I did not experience that kind of trauma, but singing the soprano parts of Hallelujah Chorus was humiliating enough ... to the point that I find it embarrassing even to mention it here, just a step shy of people who were so humiliated by abuse from predators that they are reluctant to report it.