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Author Topic: The flappers are back  (Read 5813 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: The flappers are back
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2024, 08:31:03 AM »
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  • Lex orandi, lex credendi.  The Holy Trinity is "three-in-one," not "three-within-three."

    Exactly.

    The priest holds up Jesus Christ for adoration -- three bells, to signify that He is God. God is a Holy Trinity.

    3-in-1. Exactly. So 3 bells!

    This is a perfect example of how Trads squabble over the most USELESS things that DON'T MATTER.

    Some say "THREE in one. Three rings!" Others say "three in ONE. One ring!"

    If there was ever something we could point to, that Trads argue about that doesn't matter, this would be it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #16 on: March 26, 2024, 08:47:04 AM »
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  • Exactly.

    The priest holds up Jesus Christ for adoration -- three bells, to signify that He is God. God is a Holy Trinity.

    3-in-1. Exactly. So 3 bells!

    This is a perfect example of how Trads squabble over the most USELESS things that DON'T MATTER.

    Some say "THREE in one. Three rings!" Others say "three in ONE. One ring!"

    If there was ever something we could point to, that Trads argue about that doesn't matter, this would be it.

    It's like the Kyrie/Christe Eleison ... 3 sets of 3.  I don't think anyone's making a dogmatic issue about either of these, just talking about things they don't like, e.g. the flapping at the front of the church.  Obviously has little-to-no impact on Catholic doctrine, nor affects the validity of the Mass, but still annoying.  I also don't care for the 1-3-1 bell ringing, but I'm not going to stop attending a chapel over it.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #17 on: March 26, 2024, 10:15:23 AM »
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  • It's like the Kyrie/Christe Eleison ... 3 sets of 3.  I don't think anyone's making a dogmatic issue about either of these, just talking about things they don't like, e.g. the flapping at the front of the church.  Obviously has little-to-no impact on Catholic doctrine, nor affects the validity of the Mass, but still annoying.  I also don't care for the 1-3-1 bell ringing, but I'm not going to stop attending a chapel over it.
    "Oh Dreadful Day! The priest separsted his index fingers and thumbs for two seconds during the Pater Noster. The Mass is invalid! The priest is a modernist!"
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline moneil

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #18 on: March 26, 2024, 11:07:39 AM »
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  • The forum has discussed the "bell issue" at least once before, with citations.  It appears that either the 1-3-1 or the 1-1-1 is a time honored practice.
     
    Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum  of Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R. (first Latin edition 1889) translated into English as Matters Liturgical by Rev. Thomas W. Mullaney, C.SS.R., eight edition edited by Rev. William T. Barry, C.SS.R., S.S,L., 1956:
     
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    160k) At each Elevation after the Consecration the altar bell shall be rung either three times or continuously.  This rubric is variously interpreted.  But a widely accepted practices is to ring the bell, at the genuflection before the Elevation, at the Elevation itself, and at the genuflection after the Elevation.
     
    Father Lasance My Prayer Book (1953) says that after each consecration:
    Quote
    The priest kneels, then raises the Sacred Host / chalice (the bell is rung).
     
    Blessed Be God (1925):
    Quote
    At the elevation of the Host the bell is rung thrice.  At the elevation of the Chalice the bell is rung thrice.
     
    St. Joseph Daily Missal (1951):
    Quote
    After pronouncing the words of Consecration, the Priest genuflects, and adores the Sacred Host.  He then rises, elevates It, and replaces It upon the corporal, genuflecting once again.  The bell rings once for each act of adoration.

    After genuflecting and adoring the Precious Blood, he rises, elevates It and replaces the chalice on the corporal, genuflecting once again.  The Bell rings once for each act of adoration.

    St. Joseph Daily Missal (1961) shows three bells at the elevation of both the Host and the Chalice.
     
    The St. Andrew Daily Missal (1962) does not mention bells at all.
     
    And now, for Fortescue: Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described” (First Edition 1917) citing the Eleventh Edition 1960):
    Quote
    At each Elevation he holds up slightly for a moment the end of the chasuble in his left hand, and rings the bell with his right, either continuously or three times.  He may arrange this so that he ring once when the celebrant genuflects, once when he elevates, once again when he genuflects.  Since there are two elevations the bell will be rung altogether six times.

    However, in the section on a High Mass (sung Mass with incense) he says about the Elevation:
    Quote
    The thurifer (or M.C.) incenses the Sanctissimum, kneeling on the lowest step at the Epistle side.  He makes three double swings of the thurible at each elevation (in practices, one each time the bell is rung), bowing before and after.
     
    One might conclude from Fr. Fortescue that an older practice may have been to ring the bells three times at the elevation, but no bells at the genuflections.  When bells at the genuflection became a common practice (rather than an official addition to the rubrics) is perhaps when it became 1-3-1.  In any case it appears the church allows some divergence in practice, and both Wuest and Fortescue mention situations where ringing the bell is not strictly required.  It does seem the silliest of things to worry about.  It makes a lot of sense to me for there to be three bells at the elevation, as that is distinctively a more solemn moment than the genuflections, and incense is offered at the elevations (3 doubles, fits with 3 bells) but not at the genuflections.
     
    Another gem from Fr. Fortescue from the above cited book: “As a general rule … not more servers should attend than those really needed, who have some office to perform.  It does not add to the dignity of a rite that a crowd of useless boys stand about the sanctuary doing nothing.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #19 on: March 26, 2024, 11:42:08 AM »
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  • Another gem from Fr. Fortescue from the above cited book: “As a general rule … not more servers should attend than those really needed, who have some office to perform.  It does not add to the dignity of a rite that a crowd of useless boys stand about the sanctuary doing nothing.

    It's a cute "Haha! I can relate to that!" observation, I'll give him that. BUT...

    My opinion in the exact opposite of this, but it's just my opinion.

    The more people (smart/dumb, young/old, experienced/novice and in between), the greater the King you're serving. Whether it's a king's court, or the King of Kings at Mass. Not everyone at Court is as experienced, useful or wise as the King's Advisor or something. You have all sorts of people with a whole range of "jobs" to do -- but the more people at Court, the more noble or exalted the Court is.

    Let's face it: the more people, the more money it costs. The more people you have to hire, feed, house, etc. So YES, the more people at your Court, the greater king you are.

    So it makes the whole ceremony a "bigger deal" when 15 people are up there, than just 2 people. "Bigger deal" = more dignity, more status.
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    Offline St Giles

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #20 on: March 26, 2024, 12:39:26 PM »
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  • A ring during the jenuflections can alert people to the elevation, and indicate to those who can't see what's happening that the elevation is over.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #21 on: March 26, 2024, 12:45:29 PM »
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  • LOL ... yeah, I've seen Low Masses with 6 servers, 4 of whom do absolutely nothing during the Mass.  :laugh1: 

    I don't believe they even knew the responses and certainly weren't making them.  I guess it could be a way to help train the new altar servers, little by little.  I recall that the first time I served a Tridentine Mass, I was alone, and it was somewhat intimidating.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #22 on: March 26, 2024, 01:03:29 PM »
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  • I recall that the first time I served a Tridentine Mass, I was alone, and it was somewhat intimidating.
    I had the same experience for my first time serving.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #23 on: March 26, 2024, 02:28:04 PM »
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  • LOL ... yeah, I've seen Low Masses with 6 servers, 4 of whom do absolutely nothing during the Mass.  :laugh1: 

    I don't believe they even knew the responses and certainly weren't making them.  I guess it could be a way to help train the new altar servers, little by little.  I recall that the first time I served a Tridentine Mass, I was alone, and it was somewhat intimidating.

    That brings back memories. We did that at our chapel for a while. We had 4 servers at a Low Mass, the 2 "normal" ones who actually did stuff, and the two in the middle who did nothing. I think the idea was for a bunch of the boys to get "stick time" (to use a pilot's term) -- experience at serving Mass.
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #24 on: March 26, 2024, 09:03:56 PM »
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  • …One might conclude…

    As plain as the nose on your face, "one might conclude" is NOT dispositive, but is only speculation.

    I do conclude that nowhere in any of the declarative statements is there explicitly a call for a "three-within-three" rubric.

    I did not ask for "what makes sense to [you]." I asked for a statement of definitive authority and received… the speculation of someone without jurisdiction. Bait and switch.

    If I am silly for being bothered by this, how much sillier is the person who can only offer what "one might conclude"?

    "One might conclude" that "three-within-three" is in the same canonical category as clown "Masses."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #25 on: March 26, 2024, 09:21:11 PM »
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  • …If this custom was juridically accepted from a canonical authority, I'd like to know of it. It's not too much to ask.

    Lex orandi, lex credendi.  The Holy Trinity is "three-in-one," not "three-within-three."


    Please keep your eye on the ball: "juridically accepted from a canonical authority."


    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #26 on: March 27, 2024, 01:09:52 PM »
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  • Ugh, and to think that I was once a postulant of the SSJ oblivious to all the sodomites around me. The flapping should have been the giveaway.

    Hindsight...
    I too very very briefly associated with the SSJ. One day at Shohola was enough to discern this place is wrong, wrong, wrong. Luckily I got a ride to an airport, and made my way to California  (to visit an older Catholic couple I befriended years back) to visit and recuperate a bit before heading back home to Alberta. I recall ALL the postulants who were there at the same time as I ended up leaving eventually.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #27 on: March 28, 2024, 08:34:56 AM »
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  • This is a reference to the "choir" being put up front at Mass with a "conductor" of sorts gesticulating in an alleged need to direct the singing.

    Guy with his hand up in this picture is the "flapper".


    It's a huge distraction.  You'll notice how they're blocking view of the altar, and just imagine the guy flailing away with very animated gestures, and SSPX are not limiting this to clerics either.
    Usually choirs are in the back above in choir loft.  The head pastor is to blame to allow this.  Yes, huge distraction.
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline songbird

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #28 on: March 28, 2024, 02:11:24 PM »
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  • Hm, what is the excuse for doing this!  The enemy always comes up with a notion and why we do this now and we didn't do it in the past.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The flappers are back
    « Reply #29 on: March 28, 2024, 03:06:01 PM »
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  • Usually choirs are in the back above in choir loft.  The head pastor is to blame to allow this.  Yes, huge distraction.

    So, I imagine that it's something that leaked from the seminary.  In a seminary setting, the choir effecitvely consists of all the clerics (those who had received tonsure, could wear the cassock, etc.), i.e. most of the seminarians, and the choir is situated up front near the sanctuary.  In that case, any schola would organize in the front of the church, just because that's where they were anyway.  Choir lofts were a thing for churches where you didn't have lots of clerics up front (i.e. most parish churches) and you had lay choirs.  If there was a visiting cleric, they'd often sit in the sanctuary during Mass / Office.  Nevertheless, even with the seminary scholas, I never saw the need for a "flapper".  IMO they serve no purpose as everyone's looking at their music sheets or Liber Usualis and barely noticing the flapper, just like with most orchestras also.  Conductors train all the musicians beforehand but then during the performance they're unnecessary other than to stand up there to take credit for the performance and so the audience has something to look at.  Also, many ancient churches that had clerical choirs would have some fairly high stairs going up to the altar, so that the choir wouldn't necessarily obstruct your view of the sanctuary too much.