Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Mark 79 on March 24, 2024, 03:45:54 PM
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Flapping away center stage at OLOS.
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Do you have a picture? What happened?
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Just the same old "center stage" flapping. Before V2 I never saw any chant or choir in view of the "audience." It is unseemly and I hate it.… about as much as I hate 5 bells at the consecrations— something else I never saw before V2.
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I forgot what our ultimate consensus was on the other thread, but if I recall, the only reason the flappers are up front is because they're (illegitimately) taking the place of an actual liturgical/clerical choir, which used to be up front, in the sanctuary. Even at seminary, I must admit that I didn't care for this at all, although there the flapping was generally hidden from the faithful as we were in a circle formation and the flapper kept his hands low, below the heads of the seminarians. IMO, you do not need a flapper in order to be able to keep time. I played violin in orchestra and sang in the top choir at STAS, and I don't think I ever even looked at the flapper. I was looking at the musical notation. Flappers serve no purpose other than to create a spectacle ... which during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass reduce to a huge distraction.
They probably brought the flappers back for Holy Week. Are these the post-1955 Holy Week Rites that require more "participation of the faithful"?
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... about as much as I hate 5 bells at the consecrations— something else I never saw before V2.
I don't care for that either. It's meant to specifically highlight the elevation (in case you weren't paying attention, I guess, and missed the first bell, or have trouble counting). But everything else in the Mass is in 3s, in honor of the Holy Trinity. I guess maybe they look at this as 3 within a 3.
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Flapping is homo gαy.
There ... I said it.
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Flapping is homo gαy.
There ... I said it.
Well, when the chief flappers (while we were at STAS) consisted of Fr. Urrutigoity, Eric Ensey, etc. and their "followers", I'd have to say that you're not wrong.
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I don't care for that either. It's meant to specifically highlight the elevation (in case you weren't paying attention, I guess, and missed the first bell, or have trouble counting). But everything else in the Mass is in 3s, in honor of the Holy Trinity. I guess maybe they look at this as 3 within a 3.
Has anyone here seen "3 within a 3" before V2? If there is any legitimate claim to being "traditional," I'd like to hear it.
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Well, when the chief flappers (while we were at STAS) consisted of Fr. Urrutigoity, Eric Ensey, etc. and their "followers", I'd have to say that you're not wrong.
Ugh, and to think that I was once a postulant of the SSJ oblivious to all the sodomites around me. The flapping should have been the giveaway.
Hindsight...
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The flapping should have been the giveaway.
Well, that and the fact that they all insisted upon wearing ankle-length fancy lace surplices that could have been mistaken for women's lingerie had there not been a black cassock underneath.
Admittedly, I wasn't onto them either, since most of them did not exhibit the stereotypical mannerisms generally associated with fαɢɢօtry.
I was also rather naive at the age of 21, as there was a guy from IHM to whom I actually gave a ride up to STAS who was an obvious flamer (textbook), and yet I filtered it out, in my naive mentality, since he appeared externally to be pious and devout otherwise. Perhaps you know of whom I speak. We made the mistake of getting to STAS a weak early. I still recall walking into the chapel, not knowing where to go, and seeing only now-Father Soos praying in the choir stalls, who came over, realizing we were "lost" and took us to where we needed to go. Well, I had hoped by arriving early to be able to take a few days of personal/mini- retreat to prepare for the seminary, but we were put to work immediately, since they were just moving to Winona from Ridgefield. It was hard work, carrying furniture (tables, pews, boxes of books, etc.) in 95-degree (and humid) weather. I recall that this guy seemed to no-show and disappear from the work details, and I found him in his room, with his feet kicked up on his desk, sitting in front of an electric fan he had purchased, and declaring (flailing with limp wrists and speaking in an obvious pronounced lisp) "These hands were made for chalices, not callouses." Thankfully, he was gone after a week, since he couldn't deal with Bishop Williamson's "Anti-Semitism". During the drive to Winona (from Cleveland), a large bug flew in the window at one point, and the girlish soprano-pitched shrieking emanating from the back would have put the movie "scream queens" to shame. Despite all this, I remained oblivious, having been a rather naive fellow at that young age.
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What's a flapper?
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What's a flapper?
This is a reference to the "choir" being put up front at Mass with a "conductor" of sorts gesticulating flamboyantly in an alleged need to direct the singing.
Guy with his hand up in this picture is the "flapper".
(https://angeluspress.org/cdn/shop/articles/chant.jpg?v=1515013756)
It's a huge distraction. You'll notice how they're blocking view of the altar, and just imagine the guy flailing away with very animated gestures, and SSPX are not limiting this to clerics either.
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Perhaps you know of whom I speak.
(flailing with limp wrists and speaking in an obvious pronounced lisp) "These hands were made for chalices, not callouses."
I do know of whom you speak.
There was another guy at STAS from Saint P at that time. He lasted about 24 hours and left because of "Bishop Williamson". This guy went to to be "ordained" for the 216 diocese, and later left active ministry for his boyfriend. Again, I was oblivious at the time.
We are all naïve in our late teens and early twenties.
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This is a reference to the "choir" being put up front at Mass with a "conductor" of sorts gesticulating flamboyantly in an alleged need to direct the singing.
Guy with his hand up in this picture is the "flapper".
(https://angeluspress.org/cdn/shop/articles/chant.jpg?v=1515013756)
It's a huge distraction. You'll notice how they're blocking view of the altar, and just imagine the guy flailing away with very animated gestures, and SSPX are not limiting this to clerics either.
Urg. The choir is for sound not to be seen..... This is common sense. Also a conductor is not needed. I agree this is a HUGE distraction.
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Also a conductor is not needed. I agree this is a HUGE distraction.
Neither are MCs needed for a Missa Cantata. At those Masses an MC is likewise a distraction. Save them for Solemn and Pontifical High Masses.
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Neither are MCs needed for a Missa Cantata. At those Masses an MC is likewise a distraction. Save them for Solemn and Pontifical High Masses.
Yes, especially when they're doing the clicking/clapping thing to coordinate movements, such as genuflections. It's a small enough contingent of servers where that's unnecessary and distracting.
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Well, when the chief flappers (while we were at STAS) consisted of Fr. Urrutigoity, Eric Ensey, etc. and their "followers", I'd have to say that you're not wrong.
:laugh2:
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Has anyone here seen "3 within a 3" before V2? If there is any legitimate claim to being "traditional," I'd like to hear it.
If you're talking about *ring* for the genuflection, 3x *ring* for the elevation, and then *ring* for the second genuflection --
Tom Nelson did it this way at his independent chapel which he started in the early 70's. Tom Nelson was the founder of TAN Books and was a pioneer of the Traditional Movement. I'd certainly describe Thomas A. Nelson as a "pre-Vatican II" Traditional Catholic. And that's how he trained me to serve, so...
So all I can say is -- don't get dogmatic about it, don't let your personal preference(s) intrude TOO far into the "dogma and true Tradition" department of your brain.
We all have our personal preferences. Some like a quiet Low Mass, some would go out of their way for a good High Mass. Neither is WRONG.
As an aside, I'd call receiving something in person from your ancestors as LITERALLY tradition in action. What is more traditional than a line-of-sight, person to person handing down of something? We're talking an unbroken line here, not something a dude looked up in a manual or read about on the Internet. I find that many modern-day Traditional Catholics, especially in the Indult, often flail about, because they have to *re-discover* Tradition. They have to re-start Tradition, jump start a dead car -- the line HAS been broken for them. There's something special about an UNBROKEN line, like we received from +ABL for example.
I know one Indult couple who showed a picture of their steak dinner on Ash Wednesday (it was Valentine's Day this year) -- the same couple had a Catholic feast day party, at which they prayed the Rosary IN LATIN. Not something most Trads do. See the problem? They make a big show of praying the Rosary in Latin (once), but meanwhile do they say the Rosary regularly as a family in private? Do they fast and abstain like Trads? Like I said: they flail about. They're all over the place.
Even with my puny brain, I can understand something of God's wisdom in having a LIVE human being be in charge of His Church (the Pope). You need that kind of individual monarch to make decisions, to apply common sense, to decide disputes, to judge and rule. And to personally oversee the passing on of Tradition as a whole bundle. "Tradidi quot et accepi".
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If you're talking about *ring* for the genuflection, 3x *ring* for the elevation, and then *ring* for the second genuflection --
Tom Nelson …
Your consolation is well-intentioned and appreciated, but is it not the case that the rubrics of the Mass are prescribed in detail by authority? If this custom was juridically accepted from a canonical authority, I'd like to know of it. It's not too much to ask.
Lex orandi, lex credendi. The Holy Trinity is "three-in-one," not "three-within-three."
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Your consolation is well-intentioned and appreciated, but is it not the case that the rubrics of the Mass are prescribed in detail by authority? If this custom was juridically accepted from a canonical authority, I'd like to know of it. It's not too much to ask.
Lex orandi, lex credendi. The Holy Trinity is "three-in-one," not "three-within-three."
I don't have Fortescue or other manuals of Liturgical rubrics handy, but I realize that's what you're looking for.
Actually, although I'm not an expert, I do seem to recall that "it's a matter of custom" -- i.e., NOT IN THE RUBRICS. It's not something the priest does, so it's not written in red! (Our word rubrics derives from the Latin word for RED.)
As for me personally, I'm going to go with trusting the men who personally passed the Faith on to me in the first place, that they weren't just innovating or pulling stuff out of their butt.
It's a rational thing to trust them. If they wanted to innovate or improvise the Liturgy, no one was forcing them to make such great sacrifices to be Traditional Catholics in the first place...
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Lex orandi, lex credendi. The Holy Trinity is "three-in-one," not "three-within-three."
Exactly.
The priest holds up Jesus Christ for adoration -- three bells, to signify that He is God. God is a Holy Trinity.
3-in-1. Exactly. So 3 bells!
This is a perfect example of how Trads squabble over the most USELESS things that DON'T MATTER.
Some say "THREE in one. Three rings!" Others say "three in ONE. One ring!"
If there was ever something we could point to, that Trads argue about that doesn't matter, this would be it.
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Exactly.
The priest holds up Jesus Christ for adoration -- three bells, to signify that He is God. God is a Holy Trinity.
3-in-1. Exactly. So 3 bells!
This is a perfect example of how Trads squabble over the most USELESS things that DON'T MATTER.
Some say "THREE in one. Three rings!" Others say "three in ONE. One ring!"
If there was ever something we could point to, that Trads argue about that doesn't matter, this would be it.
It's like the Kyrie/Christe Eleison ... 3 sets of 3. I don't think anyone's making a dogmatic issue about either of these, just talking about things they don't like, e.g. the flapping at the front of the church. Obviously has little-to-no impact on Catholic doctrine, nor affects the validity of the Mass, but still annoying. I also don't care for the 1-3-1 bell ringing, but I'm not going to stop attending a chapel over it.
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It's like the Kyrie/Christe Eleison ... 3 sets of 3. I don't think anyone's making a dogmatic issue about either of these, just talking about things they don't like, e.g. the flapping at the front of the church. Obviously has little-to-no impact on Catholic doctrine, nor affects the validity of the Mass, but still annoying. I also don't care for the 1-3-1 bell ringing, but I'm not going to stop attending a chapel over it.
"Oh Dreadful Day! The priest separsted his index fingers and thumbs for two seconds during the Pater Noster. The Mass is invalid! The priest is a modernist!"
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The forum has discussed the "bell issue" at least once before, with citations. It appears that either the 1-3-1 or the 1-1-1 is a time honored practice.
Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum of Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R. (first Latin edition 1889) translated into English as Matters Liturgical by Rev. Thomas W. Mullaney, C.SS.R., eight edition edited by Rev. William T. Barry, C.SS.R., S.S,L., 1956:
160k) At each Elevation after the Consecration the altar bell shall be rung either three times or continuously. This rubric is variously interpreted. But a widely accepted practices is to ring the bell, at the genuflection before the Elevation, at the Elevation itself, and at the genuflection after the Elevation.
Father Lasance My Prayer Book (1953) says that after each consecration:
The priest kneels, then raises the Sacred Host / chalice (the bell is rung).
Blessed Be God (1925):
At the elevation of the Host the bell is rung thrice. At the elevation of the Chalice the bell is rung thrice.
St. Joseph Daily Missal (1951):
After pronouncing the words of Consecration, the Priest genuflects, and adores the Sacred Host. He then rises, elevates It, and replaces It upon the corporal, genuflecting once again. The bell rings once for each act of adoration.
After genuflecting and adoring the Precious Blood, he rises, elevates It and replaces the chalice on the corporal, genuflecting once again. The Bell rings once for each act of adoration.
St. Joseph Daily Missal (1961) shows three bells at the elevation of both the Host and the Chalice.
The St. Andrew Daily Missal (1962) does not mention bells at all.
And now, for Fortescue: Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s The Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described” (First Edition 1917) citing the Eleventh Edition 1960):
At each Elevation he holds up slightly for a moment the end of the chasuble in his left hand, and rings the bell with his right, either continuously or three times. He may arrange this so that he ring once when the celebrant genuflects, once when he elevates, once again when he genuflects. Since there are two elevations the bell will be rung altogether six times.
However, in the section on a High Mass (sung Mass with incense) he says about the Elevation:
The thurifer (or M.C.) incenses the Sanctissimum, kneeling on the lowest step at the Epistle side. He makes three double swings of the thurible at each elevation (in practices, one each time the bell is rung), bowing before and after.
One might conclude from Fr. Fortescue that an older practice may have been to ring the bells three times at the elevation, but no bells at the genuflections. When bells at the genuflection became a common practice (rather than an official addition to the rubrics) is perhaps when it became 1-3-1. In any case it appears the church allows some divergence in practice, and both Wuest and Fortescue mention situations where ringing the bell is not strictly required. It does seem the silliest of things to worry about. It makes a lot of sense to me for there to be three bells at the elevation, as that is distinctively a more solemn moment than the genuflections, and incense is offered at the elevations (3 doubles, fits with 3 bells) but not at the genuflections.
Another gem from Fr. Fortescue from the above cited book: “As a general rule … not more servers should attend than those really needed, who have some office to perform. It does not add to the dignity of a rite that a crowd of useless boys stand about the sanctuary doing nothing.”
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Another gem from Fr. Fortescue from the above cited book: “As a general rule … not more servers should attend than those really needed, who have some office to perform. It does not add to the dignity of a rite that a crowd of useless boys stand about the sanctuary doing nothing.”
It's a cute "Haha! I can relate to that!" observation, I'll give him that. BUT...
My opinion in the exact opposite of this, but it's just my opinion.
The more people (smart/dumb, young/old, experienced/novice and in between), the greater the King you're serving. Whether it's a king's court, or the King of Kings at Mass. Not everyone at Court is as experienced, useful or wise as the King's Advisor or something. You have all sorts of people with a whole range of "jobs" to do -- but the more people at Court, the more noble or exalted the Court is.
Let's face it: the more people, the more money it costs. The more people you have to hire, feed, house, etc. So YES, the more people at your Court, the greater king you are.
So it makes the whole ceremony a "bigger deal" when 15 people are up there, than just 2 people. "Bigger deal" = more dignity, more status.
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A ring during the jenuflections can alert people to the elevation, and indicate to those who can't see what's happening that the elevation is over.
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LOL ... yeah, I've seen Low Masses with 6 servers, 4 of whom do absolutely nothing during the Mass. :laugh1:
I don't believe they even knew the responses and certainly weren't making them. I guess it could be a way to help train the new altar servers, little by little. I recall that the first time I served a Tridentine Mass, I was alone, and it was somewhat intimidating.
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I recall that the first time I served a Tridentine Mass, I was alone, and it was somewhat intimidating.
I had the same experience for my first time serving.
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LOL ... yeah, I've seen Low Masses with 6 servers, 4 of whom do absolutely nothing during the Mass. :laugh1:
I don't believe they even knew the responses and certainly weren't making them. I guess it could be a way to help train the new altar servers, little by little. I recall that the first time I served a Tridentine Mass, I was alone, and it was somewhat intimidating.
That brings back memories. We did that at our chapel for a while. We had 4 servers at a Low Mass, the 2 "normal" ones who actually did stuff, and the two in the middle who did nothing. I think the idea was for a bunch of the boys to get "stick time" (to use a pilot's term) -- experience at serving Mass.
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…One might conclude…
As plain as the nose on your face, "one might conclude" is NOT dispositive, but is only speculation.
I do conclude that nowhere in any of the declarative statements is there explicitly a call for a "three-within-three" rubric.
I did not ask for "what makes sense to [you]." I asked for a statement of definitive authority and received… the speculation of someone without jurisdiction. Bait and switch.
If I am silly for being bothered by this, how much sillier is the person who can only offer what "one might conclude"?
"One might conclude" that "three-within-three" is in the same canonical category as clown "Masses."
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…If this custom was juridically accepted from a canonical authority, I'd like to know of it. It's not too much to ask.
Lex orandi, lex credendi. The Holy Trinity is "three-in-one," not "three-within-three."
Please keep your eye on the ball: "juridically accepted from a canonical authority."
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Ugh, and to think that I was once a postulant of the SSJ oblivious to all the sodomites around me. The flapping should have been the giveaway.
Hindsight...
I too very very briefly associated with the SSJ. One day at Shohola was enough to discern this place is wrong, wrong, wrong. Luckily I got a ride to an airport, and made my way to California (to visit an older Catholic couple I befriended years back) to visit and recuperate a bit before heading back home to Alberta. I recall ALL the postulants who were there at the same time as I ended up leaving eventually.
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This is a reference to the "choir" being put up front at Mass with a "conductor" of sorts gesticulating flamboyantly in an alleged need to direct the singing.
Guy with his hand up in this picture is the "flapper".
(https://angeluspress.org/cdn/shop/articles/chant.jpg?v=1515013756)
It's a huge distraction. You'll notice how they're blocking view of the altar, and just imagine the guy flailing away with very animated gestures, and SSPX are not limiting this to clerics either.
Usually choirs are in the back above in choir loft. The head pastor is to blame to allow this. Yes, huge distraction.
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Hm, what is the excuse for doing this! The enemy always comes up with a notion and why we do this now and we didn't do it in the past.
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Usually choirs are in the back above in choir loft. The head pastor is to blame to allow this. Yes, huge distraction.
So, I imagine that it's something that leaked from the seminary. In a seminary setting, the choir effecitvely consists of all the clerics (those who had received tonsure, could wear the cassock, etc.), i.e. most of the seminarians, and the choir is situated up front near the sanctuary. In that case, any schola would organize in the front of the church, just because that's where they were anyway. Choir lofts were a thing for churches where you didn't have lots of clerics up front (i.e. most parish churches) and you had lay choirs. If there was a visiting cleric, they'd often sit in the sanctuary during Mass / Office. Nevertheless, even with the seminary scholas, I never saw the need for a "flapper". IMO they serve no purpose as everyone's looking at their music sheets or Liber Usualis and barely noticing the flapper, just like with most orchestras also. Conductors train all the musicians beforehand but then during the performance they're unnecessary other than to stand up there to take credit for the performance and so the audience has something to look at. Also, many ancient churches that had clerical choirs would have some fairly high stairs going up to the altar, so that the choir wouldn't necessarily obstruct your view of the sanctuary too much.
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Has anyone heard that their center aisle stage will be lubed with olive oil tonight? Did I hear someone say that if they all fall in a heap flapping, they might relocate to where they belong? :laugh2:
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Flappers are also useless because your average parishioner in the pews doesn't read chant. So the flapping (chironomy -- the rhythms and stress of chant) is vanity.
Also as an aside, if they can read neumes and they're not in the schola during the Triduum? :jester: Your director needs you!
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$%^& flappers were back at Mass center stage. too bad they didn't slip and fall into a heap.
If other OLOS parishioners are annoyed by the vain distraction, please mention it to our Pastor and Prior.
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Flappers are also useless because your average parishioner in the pews doesn't read chant. So the flapping (chironomy -- the rhythms and stress of chant) is vanity.
Also as an aside, if they can read neumes and they're not in the schola during the Triduum? :jester: Your director needs you!
And the singers in the schola aren't looking at the flapper either.
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Can anyone share details of the head flapper's departure from OLOS Academy?
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Can anyone share details of the head flapper's departure from OLOS Academy?
Evidence was found of an inappropriate relationship between him and a female student while he was a teacher. He was in his early twenties; she was 15. The evidence was romantic letters exchanged between the two. He was also providing alcohol to female student-athletes and photographing them in the locker room.
He was in charge of the altar boys for a long time, too. One dad in particular took issue with the flapper's insistence that the dad's son meet privately with the flapper on numerous occassions in order to be allowed to serve. When this dad looked further into why the flapper was coming off as such a narcissist, he uncovered the flappers lurid past with the academy and didn't let up on the priests or the flapper about it until he was removed from that position as well.
Now he's in the center aisle, flapping around, causing old women to trip and fall, and carressing young ladies with his "flappers" as they walk by. It's a scandal and it needs to stop. The pastor and prior know of the issues, but refuse to take action, which most who take issue would like to just see them take their flapping up into the loft where they belong...I wonder why?
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Evidence was found of an inappropriate relationship between him and a female student while he was a teacher. He was in his early twenties; she was 15. The evidence was romantic letters exchanged between the two. He was also providing alcohol to female student-athletes and photographing them in the locker room.
He was in charge of the altar boys for a long time, too. One dad in particular took issue with the flapper's insistence that the dad's son meet privately with the flapper on numerous occassions in order to be allowed to serve. When this dad looked further into why the flapper was coming off as such a narcissist, he uncovered the flappers lurid past with the academy and didn't let up on the priests or the flapper about it until he was removed from that position as well.
Now he's in the center aisle, flapping around, causing old women to trip and fall, and carressing young ladies with his "flappers" as they walk by. It's a scandal and it needs to stop. The pastor and prior know of the issues, but refuse to take action, which most who take issue would like to just see them take their flapping up into the loft where they belong...I wonder why?
So this guy has a prominent position in the church's choir despite his past? That's a scandal that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place.
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Evidence was found of an inappropriate relationship between him and a female student while he was a teacher. He was in his early twenties; she was 15. The evidence was romantic letters exchanged between the two. He was also providing alcohol to female student-athletes and photographing them in the locker room.
He was in charge of the altar boys for a long time, too. One dad in particular took issue with the flapper's insistence that the dad's son meet privately with the flapper on numerous occassions in order to be allowed to serve. When this dad looked further into why the flapper was coming off as such a narcissist, he uncovered the flappers lurid past with the academy and didn't let up on the priests or the flapper about it until he was removed from that position as well.
Now he's in the center aisle, flapping around, causing old women to trip and fall, and carressing young ladies with his "flappers" as they walk by. It's a scandal and it needs to stop. The pastor and prior know of the issues, but refuse to take action, which most who take issue would like to just see them take their flapping up into the loft where they belong...I wonder why?
Ugh.
I have no desire to teach, but fly me to Phoenix and I will direct their schola and conduct the choir on Sundays. And not be a vain twerp. Honestly.
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Evidence was found of an inappropriate relationship between him and a female student while he was a teacher. He was in his early twenties; she was 15. The evidence was romantic letters exchanged between the two. He was also providing alcohol to female student-athletes and photographing them in the locker room.
I don’t see how I could in good conscience send my future children to a private school. Especially when I keep hearing stories like this coming out of the “good” ones. These are just the people who are caught misbehaving, imagine how many things occur behind closed doors that your kids could be subjected to.
I go to OLOS and this is concerning to me. I think it’s important information for people to know, especially parents… that being said, is this not gossip or detraction? At what point is the information consequential enough to warrant spreading it like this? The poster says that the accused was in his early 20’s at the time. Well, he looks like he is in his mid to late 30’s now, so how are these claims of a grave enough concern in the current moment to warrant spreading them? That flapper is by no means a small part of the parish so such an inflammatory post may have deep repercussions.
My intention isn’t to accuse, I am just wondering about the necessity of posting those claims. I think the flapping is gαy too but that has literally nothing to do with this man’s character. I am sure if enough people bring it up to our pastor he can get rid of the “circle of life” as I have heard some parishioners call it. If it’s that much of a distraction, consider sitting in the front rows during Mass.
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Now he's in the center aisle, flapping around, causing old women to trip and fall, and carressing young ladies with his "flappers" as they walk by. It's a scandal and it needs to stop.
This is completely ridiculous. The schola has never caused any old ladies to "trip and fall", and certainly no young ladies have been "caressed".
The pastor and prior know of the issues, but refuse to take action, which most who take issue would like to just see them take their flapping up into the loft where they belong...I wonder why?
First of all, I doubt many people have called for any action to take place. Most people are completely apathetic about the fate of the schola and their flapping.
I am assuming the reason why our pastor organized the schola and placed them in the center of the church is because none of our parishioners (outside of the choir) sing -- and we know how much our pastor enjoys singing, judging by the bi-monthly "you guys need to start singing" sermon.
I am assuming -- judging by your attack on the flapper -- that you are not a fan of the flapping. Neither am I. I think its gαy. But you cannot deny that our pastor implemented it with a happy object in mind, which is to get the parish to participate in the beauty of the liturgy. With all of that being said, your post is slightly retarded.
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...Conductors train all the musicians beforehand but then during the performance they're unnecessary other than to stand up there to take credit for the performance and so the audience has something to look at...
There are some cues and especially timing aspects that require somebody to conduct a group. The way that the music moves ahead, on or behind the beat is crucial to how it will "feel". It is something that is not on the sheet, and that is why the conductor is so important.
Even Baroque music performances will have a musician the leads the group, as a conductor was not the custom at the time. It will usually be the soloist.
I don't really know much about chant, but I notice that some kind of direction is necessary. The rhythm can get messy if there is not a clear leader.
Of course it doesn't need to be done dramatically and theatrically.
I had never heard of "flapping" and it does sound very innapropriate. How can a person be allowed to stand on the front of the altar calling attention to itself? Does this practice have a historical precedent?
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Evidence was found of an inappropriate relationship between him and a female student while he was a teacher. He was in his early twenties; she was 15. The evidence was romantic letters exchanged between the two. He was also providing alcohol to female student-athletes and photographing them in the locker room.
He was in charge of the altar boys for a long time, too. One dad in particular took issue with the flapper's insistence that the dad's son meet privately with the flapper on numerous occassions in order to be allowed to serve. When this dad looked further into why the flapper was coming off as such a narcissist, he uncovered the flappers lurid past with the academy and didn't let up on the priests or the flapper about it until he was removed from that position as well.
Now he's in the center aisle, flapping around, causing old women to trip and fall, and carressing young ladies with his "flappers" as they walk by. It's a scandal and it needs to stop. The pastor and prior know of the issues, but refuse to take action, which most who take issue would like to just see them take their flapping up into the loft where they belong...I wonder why?
Thanks for refreshing my memory. Is this the same flapper, the head flapper with the shortish blond hair and trimmed beard? and who has a young blond daughter about 7 y/o? Are you sure that the current Prior and Pastor, Frs. MacFarland and Pons respectively, are aware of the scandal?
After Easter Mass the head flapper walked past an older parishioner near the holy water font and I saw the older parishioner get in the flapper's face and heard him say quite emphatically, "You need to stop being the center of attention and move out of the center of the church!" The flapper looked quite shocked at the confrontation, but paused, seemed to think better of it, so said nothing and hastily moved on.
While this is not as scandalous as the Sloniker affair in Idaho, if indeed the head flapper is the one involved in the scandal, it is disturbing that once again someone with a "history" is allowed to be in charge.
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While this is not as scandalous as the Sloniker affair in Idaho, if indeed the head flapper is the one involved in the scandal, it is disturbing that once again someone with a "history" is allowed to be in charge.
AND to be the focus of attention during the Sacred Liturgy, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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After Easter Mass the head flapper walked past an older parishioner near the holy water font and I saw the older parishioner get in the flapper's face and heard him say quite emphatically, "You need to stop being the center of attention and move out of the center of the church!" The flapper looked quite shocked at the confrontation, but paused, seemed to think better of it, so said nothing and hastily moved on.
Oh, admit it, Mark, that "older parishioner" was none other than youself, right? :laugh1:
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Oh, admit it, Mark, that "older parishioner" was none other than youself, right? :laugh1:
I wish! That dude was moving even faster after the confrontation!
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I had never heard of "flapping" and it does sound very innapropriate. How can a person be allowed to stand on the front of the altar calling attention to itself? Does this practice have a historical precedent?
The sspx leadership are bringing to the US all of the "european customs" from the 30s, 40s, 50s. Most of these customs were liturgical abuses, and not traditional.
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The sspx leadership are bringing to the US all of the "european customs" from the 30s, 40s, 50s. Most of these customs were liturgical abuses, and not traditional.
This must be part of some bigger plan. A hybrid mass was mentioned some time ago. There might be a deal with the Roman authorities to implement this little by little.
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The sspx leadership are bringing to the US all of the "european customs" from the 30s, 40s, 50s. Most of these customs were liturgical abuses, and not traditional.
Unfortunately, some of these were given a nod/wink of approval from Pope Pius XII.
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This must be part of some bigger plan. A hybrid mass was mentioned some time ago. There might be a deal with the Roman authorities to implement this little by little.
The 62 Missal is itself a problem since it is the temporary bridge betwee the immemorial Mass and the Novus Ordo. The so-called 64 and 67 missals are merely rubrical modifications of the 62 missal.
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The 62 Missal is itself a problem since it is the temporary bridge betwee the immemorial Mass and the Novus Ordo. The so-called 64 and 67 missals are merely rubrical modifications of the 62 missal.
I think that we could consider that the Novus Ordo mass started with the Dialogue Mass in the 1920s. Then there were the Versus Populum experiments, the 1955 Holy Week, the 1960 Calendar, the 1962 Missal, and the changes of rubrics that you mentioned. This plan has already acomplished its goal in 1969.
But I think that Benedict XVI's plan of making a synthesis of the 1962 Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass might have not been abandoned. If it was, why would the SSPX impose these liturgical innovations? These things were never a custom in the US, as I have read.
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But I think that Benedict XVI's plan of making a synthesis of the 1962 Mass and the Novus Ordo Mass might have not been abandoned. If it was, why would the SSPX impose these liturgical innovations? These things were never a custom in the US, as I have read.
I think it's still in the works, but just delayed by one Bishop Richard Williamson. They'll boil the frog since they know it won't be accepted all at once.
So, after Traditionis Custodes, the bishop of Cleveland didn't immediately act on it. Finally, Rome clamped down and he had to shut down most of the Motu Masses, apart from one held at a parish that he designated a "shrine" (and two more pending an appeal to Rome, which will be denied). In many of the places that they had Motu Masses, they're now having Latin NO Masses instead. So, you use Latin, have people kneel for Holy Communion, sing some Gregorian chant, use Anaphora (aka Eucharistic Prayer) I, which is nearly identical to the Tridentine Canon, and 95% of the laity wouldn't even know the difference. They'll come away with the impression, "Well, this NOM isn't as bad as we thought if done right. It's basically the same thing."
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Thanks for refreshing my memory. Is this the same flapper, the head flapper with the shortish blond hair and trimmed beard? and who has a young blond daughter about 7 y/o? Are you sure that the current Prior and Pastor, Frs. MacFarland and Pons respectively, are aware of the scandal?
After Easter Mass the head flapper walked past an older parishioner near the holy water font and I saw the older parishioner get in the flapper's face and heard him say quite emphatically, "You need to stop being the center of attention and move out of the center of the church!" The flapper looked quite shocked at the confrontation, but paused, seemed to think better of it, so said nothing and hastily moved on.
While this is not as scandalous as the Sloniker affair in Idaho, if indeed the head flapper is the one involved in the scandal, it is disturbing that once again someone with a "history" is allowed to be in charge.
Yes, it is. I know of dozens who have expressed their concerns to the Prior and Pastor, to no avail. The parish secretary has reported countless calls about it as well 4-6 effeminate men, mostly single or whose wives are in the cry room, reserve 2 whole pews every Sunday/Holy Day, all because (they claim) it's "better acoustics". The Prior defers to the Pastor, who claims plenty of people "love it" and the monks do it so why can't they?
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Yes, it is. I know of dozens who have expressed their concerns to the Prior and Pastor, to no avail. The parish secretary has reported countless calls about it as well 4-6 effeminate men, mostly single or whose wives are in the cry room, reserve 2 whole pews every Sunday/Holy Day, all because (they claim) it's "better acoustics". The Prior defers to the Pastor, who claims plenty of people "love it" and the monks do it so why can't they?
Well… I can think of many things that people "love." Let's start doing those things too.
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There are some cues and especially timing aspects that require somebody to conduct a group. The way that the music moves ahead, on or behind the beat is crucial to how it will "feel". It is something that is not on the sheet, and that is why the conductor is so important.
Even Baroque music performances will have a musician the leads the group, as a conductor was not the custom at the time. It will usually be the soloist.
I don't really know much about chant, but I notice that some kind of direction is necessary. The rhythm can get messy if there is not a clear leader.
Of course it doesn't need to be done dramatically and theatrically.
I had never heard of "flapping" and it does sound very innapropriate. How can a person be allowed to stand on the front of the altar calling attention to itself? Does this practice have a historical precedent?
I disagree. Nobody looks at the flapper. There’s usually a dominant voice and you follow by listening rather than by watching the hand flap, and you practice ahead of time so you’re all in the same page. There are a number of conductorless orchestras out there that perform every bit as well as those with conductors.
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Who practices these days at little mission chapels? Once mass is over its time to scram. And half the people font listen for the lead voice to keep time or tune.
Directing from the front is an imperfect attempt at a solution. I saw in a 1980's or 90's Angelus a picture of a scola standing up front between the pews at a boys school. Odd since there were no choir stalls.
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I disagree. Nobody looks at the flapper. There’s usually a dominant voice and you follow by listening rather than by watching the hand flap, and you practice ahead of time so you’re all in the same page. There are a number of conductorless orchestras out there that perform every bit as well as those with conductors.
It seems to me that we agree. When you mention a dominant voice, it's the leader. Hand gestures or not, he is leading the group.
I have never seem a big orchestra without a conductor. Only Baroque ensembles, which are not really orchestras. I would like to see one. If you could give me a link to a video, I would be glad.
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IMHO, the role of the schola director has been lost in the sense that before V-2 most of the singers could speak Latin (not just read it but speak it a little bit). I think it was taken for granted that the singers would knew where to stress the syllables and give shape to the phrases which in turn give musicality to the chant. The director would make sure everyone was aligned through his gestures. I'm sure everyone can tell when someone is speaking Italian by the accent and shape of the phrases, and Latin should sound pretty close to that. My mother language is Spanish and I speak Italian as well. I moved to the US more than 20 years ago. During these years I have heard different scholas and all of them sing syllables, not words or phrases, and it sounds choppy to my ears. The effect is the same as that of a non native English speaker who tries to sing in English without speaking the language, and even though the individual syllables may sound correct, the words and phrases don't.
I agree that in the present situation these "flappers" are not needed.