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Offline Isaac Jogues

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The First Pope and Baptism
« on: August 10, 2013, 07:54:43 AM »
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    1 Peter 3:20-22-" [20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.[21] Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [22] Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him."


    St. Peter specifically tells us how we are saved. He compares it to how the Ark saved Noe. He says Baptism is how we are made 'heirs of life everlasting'.

    I wonder if Noe just desired to build the Ark or be on it, it would have saved him?


    How about this one?

    Quote
    Acts 2:37-39- "[37] Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart, and said to Peter, and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? [38] But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is to you, and to your children, and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call."


    Did Peter say, 'do penance and at least desire baptism' for the remission of sins? Nope.

    If you notice the last part, "whomsoever the Lord our God shall call". This seems to show the Catholic understanding of predestination and the elect. The elect, or the people He calls, will be Baptized.

    To say, even in "explicit BOD", that there are unforeseen accidents that prevent one from being baptized goes against this teaching. It's simple, they were not part of those whom 'God shall call'.

    This Ex Cathedra teachings of the First Pope.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline Nishant

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    The First Pope and Baptism
    « Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 05:10:22 PM »
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  • The same St. Peter in the same book contradicts you magnificently.

    For when the Prince of the Apostles was proclaiming the Gospel, it is recorded by St. Luke,

    Quote from: Acts 10
    [43]To him all the prophets give testimony, that by his name all receive remission of sins, who believe in him. [44] While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. [45] And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.

    [46] For they heard them speaking with tongues, and magnifying God. [47] Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?


    So St. Peter himself, wonderfully illumined by God, refutes the pharisaic errors of the present time, by asserting authoritatively, that these unbaptized catechumens have received the Holy Ghost just as the baptized disciples had. And he had preached the Trinity, Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection, but had not yet mentioned baptism, so the desire for baptism was only implicit in these catechumens.

    Hence, St. Augustine, "I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]"

    So also St. Thomas, "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit"

    So the clear testimony of the Holy Ghost, speaking through the Prince and head of the Apostles, in inspired Scripture as divine revelation strictly so called, with patristic Tradition and testimony confirming, is that the sacramental effect of baptism, just like penance, can be received in desire, which no one can lawfully call into question.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    The First Pope and Baptism
    « Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 06:33:24 PM »
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  •  1. No one is denying that Water Baptism is necessary, no one, at least no Catholic.  

    2. Baptism of Desire is when the Holy Ghost inspires you to contrition for your sins, love of God and a desire to do the Will of God.  

    3. For some unknown reason the person who is so inspired by the Holy Ghost is murdered or dies without the opportunity to fulfill the Will of God completely, he does not go the Hell.  

    Why is that so hard to understand especially when the Church teaches it.  



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    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    The First Pope and Baptism
    « Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 07:11:13 PM »
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  • Nishant said:
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    The same St. Peter in the same book contradicts you magnificently.


    If he contradicts what he said in Acts and 1Peter then he contradicts himself. It's pretty clear, baptism remits sins and baptism saves you. It's not my opinion, it's what he said.

    Nishant said:
    Quote
    So St. Peter himself, wonderfully illumined by God, refutes the pharisaic errors of the present time, by asserting authoritatively, that these unbaptized catechumens have received the Holy Ghost just as the baptized disciples had.


    What's your point? The catechumens received the graces necessary to believe and convert. It doesn't say that they don't have to be baptized now just because they believe.

    Nishant said:
    Quote
    And he had preached the Trinity, Incarnation, Passion and Resurrection, but had not yet mentioned baptism, so the desire for baptism was only implicit in these catechumens.


    Yes it was implicit. It doesn't say that their sins are remitted or that now they can die and go straight to heaven.

    Nishant said:
    Quote
    Hence, St. Augustine, "I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]"


    Well what's your point again? I agree that the person, who is not inside the Church (Catechumen), but believes and loves all the doctrines of Christ, is better off than the person who is also outside the Church, but does not believe in the doctrines of Christ. I would say that it would be easier too, for the Catechumen to enter the Church than the Heretic to re-enter. This still doesn't change the fact that if either of them died in their respective states, they would be equally lost.

    Nishant said:
    Quote
    So also St. Thomas, "So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit"


    Ah, more qoutes not from the magisterium. Still, this doesn't prove that this belief will save them. Remember,
    Quote
    Mark 16:16 "[16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned."
    It is not enough just to believe but you must be baptized as well.

    Nishant said:
    Quote
    So the clear testimony of the Holy Ghost, speaking through the Prince and head of the Apostles, in inspired Scripture as divine revelation strictly so called, with patristic Tradition and testimony confirming, is that the sacramental effect of baptism, just like penance, can be received in desire, which no one can lawfully call into question.


    It's pretty easy to see that Peter is clearly saying that Baptism remits sins and is what saves a person. You are injecting your opinion where it doesn't belong and, as far as I can see, purposely distorting the teachings.
    You really need to show some solemn statements saying that BOD is a way that can get people into heaven, because Catholics can show a lot of ex cathedra statements that say water Baptism is absolutely necessary to the exclusion of all else.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline MyrnaM

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    The First Pope and Baptism
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 10:36:13 AM »
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    It is not enough just to believe but you must be baptized as well.

     

    We are not talking about the way the Protestants talk, just believe on the Lord and you will be saved.  

    We are speaking of the Holy Ghost inspiration where the person believes and wants the truth, is willing to do all to get it, and has a deep contrition for their sins.  


     

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