Author Topic: The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance  (Read 934 times)

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Offline CM

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The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
« on: June 29, 2009, 01:32:22 AM »
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  • It is necessary to know who the first pope is. By Divine and Catholic Faith, we believe that St. Peter was the first of many men chosen by Christ to represent Him on earth after His resurrection and ascension into heaven. This, of course is important, so that we may see how the papacy began, and how it developed under the protection of God the Holy Ghost.

    It is also necessary to know who the current, or at least the most recent pope is. Without knowing who the current or most recent pope is, then we do not have a authoritative voice to follow, guiding us in matters Divinely revealed.

    By recognizing who is an antipope and who is a true pope, we can determine whose teachings we must obey, and those whose teachings we must reject as non-Catholic. Any person who acknowledges as a public or manifest heretic as Catholic, especially one who claims to be a pope, cannot themselves remain Catholic, being in heresy themselves. They are heretical for denying the dogma that heretics, by Divine Law and without the need for any declaration at all, are ejected from the Catholic Church, and out of the way of salvation.

    Ignorance itself will not excuse a person from the guilt of infidelity to the true religion, such as subjecting oneself to a heretical antipope, but invincible ignorance alone. Notice also that the following teaching of Pius IX does not state that such persons will be exonerated from the guilt of original sin or other sins against morality. Pope Pius IX never taught that a person in the state of invincible ignorance of the true Faith could be saved, but that there just punishment would not include punishment for infidelity.

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, December 9, 1854: "For it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."

    It is a definite stretch to assert that a person with the use of reason who has access to other people, books and libraries could be invincibly ignorant of any human knowledge at all. For this reason, and the fact that all human beings have an obligation to find and profess the true Faith of Jesus Christ, in the world today it would be imprudent to attempt to exonerate anyone at all with the excuse of invincible ignorance.

    So anyone at all who is subject to a manifestly heretical papal claimant, recognizing them as a Catholic pope, is guilty of infidelity against the true religion. Sadly our recent history is filled with all sorts of such people, including Padre Pio, Sr. Lucia, Malachi Martin and anyone else who submitted to the antipopes of the 20th century, starting with Benedict XV.

    St. Mark 13:5-7: "And Jesus answering, began to say to them, Take heed lest any man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and they shall deceive many. And when you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, fear ye not. For such things must needs be, but the end is not yet."

    St. Matthew 24:21-25: "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Behold I have told it to you, beforehand."

    Unless those days had been shortened no flesh should be saved. We should not be surprised to think that most people in the past century have gone to hell for being in schism from the true Faith. Some might here ask: "How could God allow so many people to be cast out of the Church, just like that?"

    Apocalypse 3:16: "But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."

    Needless to say, those who are hot with the love of God know His Faith well enough to spot heresy and to anathematize all heretics, especially those who claim to be the supreme pastor over the whole Catholic Church.

    Offline Raoul76

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 02:34:03 AM »
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  • I'm surprised you didn't label Pius IX an anti-Pope because of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine.

    I must admit that one makes me cringe.  The pagans of the Americas before the colonization by the Spaniards were invincibly ignorant.  Is heaven stocked with Mayans and Aztecs?

    If this were true across the board, that you could be saved in invincible ignorance, wouldn't it almost be BETTER to be ignorant?  It would certainly help me avoid sinning constantly and offending God.

    I think, just as with the idea that catechumens might get to heaven, or aborted babies to limbo, "invincible ignorance" is a comforting notion that keeps the Catholic Church from seeming too harsh.  It helps with people who screech "WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE PEOPLE IN AFRICA WHO DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT CHRIST?  ARE THEY GOING TO HELL?"  

    These questions are quite hard to answer and sometimes God can even seem unjust, as he often might to someone who is first discovering the notion of eternal punishment in the flames.  It might seem unfair that all those Romans and Greeks are in the underworld just because they lived before Christ even came to Earth.  Can't He just kill those who aren't good enough for heaven, does He have to roast them forever?

    It probably doesn't make this seem less unfair to say "Let the dead bury their dead; you who are still living come with me."  But God gets His Word out to those to whom He will.  It may not seem logical or fair by our standards but it is based on an intimate knowledge of each individual heart.  Those who seek WILL find.  That is a promise that He keeps.

    Whether dead catechumens or the invincibly ignorant actually get to heaven is something we'll only find out on the Last Day.  Neither concept is worth becoming a potential schismatic over.  ( I saved my dig for the last sentence CM ).  
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS


    Offline CM

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 11:58:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    I'm surprised you didn't label Pius IX an anti-Pope because of the "invincible ignorance" doctrine.


    Do you misunderstand this teaching also?  Read the quote by Pius IX in my post.  If you think he taught that invincible ignorance can get a person into heaven, then you have to accuse him of blatant Orwellian double think, first saying that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, and then saying invincible ignorance can save even outside the Catholic Church.

    BUT

    He did not say they can be saved or preserved from the guilt of original sin or actual sin, only that they are not stained by any guilt in this matter (labouring in invincible ignorance of the true religion), so their just punishment in hell for original sin (of which each person bears a personal guilt, until baptized) and for actual sins, will not include punishment for rejecting Christ.

    Quote from: Raoul76
    Whether dead catechumens or the invincibly ignorant actually get to heaven is something we'll only find out on the Last Day.


    No, it's not Michael, we already know the answers to these questions if we believe in the dogma of infallibility, you poor man.

    Read the infallible and dogmatic Athanasian Creed and believe it.  Or the Council of Vienne, or Florence, or Trent OR THE BIBLE!  Why have an infallible Creed and infallible Council decrees that define Roman Catholicism if you won't believe them?

    Quote from: Hristoroquen
    OK, I'm game...who is the 'real' Pope then?   :reporter:


    Pope Pius X was the last reigning Roman Pontiff.  Be thou subject to him, his teachings and all the popes whom he recognized as valid Roman Pontiffs.  Anyone after that who has claimed to be pope was schismatic, heretical or apostate, as sound Catholic theology will plainly show.  To follow them places a soul in objective schism from the true religion and on the road to hell.

    Offline Caminus

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 12:03:03 PM »
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  • I take it you haven't gone to see that priest yet.

    Offline DeMaistre

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 04:26:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    I take it you haven't gone to see that priest yet.


    There are no priests.


    Offline Raoul76

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 04:42:59 PM »
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  • "Do you misunderstand this teaching also?"  :roll-laugh2:

    I misunderstood invincible ignorance, not baptism of desire.  I've read more about the latter because of all the controversy and made up my mind firmly about it.  

    I've only been Catholic for six months and am learning as I go.  I don't just come on this website to teach the things I know but to learn from others.

     


    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 06:31:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: DeMaistre
    Quote from: Caminus
    I take it you haven't gone to see that priest yet.


    There are no priests.



    ....
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline CM

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    The first and most recent popes and invincible ignorance
    « Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 02:16:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    I misunderstood invincible ignorance, not baptism of desire.  I've read more about the latter because of all the controversy and made up my mind firmly about it.


    You're wrong.


     

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