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Author Topic: The Feeneyite Heresy  (Read 4042 times)

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Offline Deliveringit1

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The Feeneyite Heresy
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 02:23:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Statements from Popes and Saints after Florence clearly show that the official interpretation of EENS therein is not Fr. Feeney's.


    Apparently the Catholic truth which Stubborn just stated in his post went directly over Stevusmagnus' head  :facepalm:

    Stevus, let me break it down for you ,....A CATHOLIC DOES NOT NEED ANYONE TO INTERPRET WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DECLARED INFALLIBLY BY THE CHURCH

    The proximate of faith is the "infallible teaching" itself....


    Offline Goose

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #16 on: January 10, 2011, 10:11:06 PM »
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  • So Stevus,

    If EENS doesn't mean what is says it does then what is the problem with religious liberty and ecuмenism as practiced by the Church today? EENS is the pivoting point with the crisis in the Church. Restore EENS and ecuмenism, religious liberty, the new Mass et al. go bye bye.

    Every branch of SBC is now in full communion with the Church - the same Church that condemned Fr. Feeney now admitted his order back into the Church. So..... who are you fighting? Are you sola Pius XII?  :guitar:

    I'd suggest reading Fr. Michael Mueller's THE CATHOLIC DOGMA available free online. The only novelty, I believe, with Fr. Feeney was where he took the distinction of salvation and justification so far as to say that someone who is in a state of justification could not attain salvation w/o first being baptised - his notorious denial of BOD/BOB or at least his denial of what they effect - as Fr. Feeney didn't deny they could get one into a state of justification, he denied they could thereby be saved by them.

    Also, I can't cut and paste right now, but go back and read the last couple of paragraphs of the Letter of the Holy office - in the end it explicitly states that not 'any faith' will suffice and goes and to define what is explicit faith and not implicit. The reference to Pius XII's encyclical also does not make sense since the reference speaks of those 'related' to the Church - if memory serves correct. Being related or oriented to the Church and being inside of it are two different things.


    Offline Jehanne

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #17 on: April 02, 2011, 04:18:43 PM »
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  • I guess I learn something new everyday!  I never knew that one could view what other people were viewing on the forum.

    Father Feeney never denied BoD/BoB and that was not even the issue in 1947:

    http://catholicism.org/feeney-doctrine.html

    His views can be summarized here:

    http://catholicism.org/desire-justification-salvation.html

    Offline Raoul76

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #18 on: April 02, 2011, 04:52:45 PM »
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  • As someone who once suffered from semi-Feeneyite scruples, let me give some advice to those who are trying to enlighten the Feeney crowd.

    Forget about using Pius XII and excommunication and the letter of the Vatican II Cardinal.  Pius XII, since he came right before Vatican II, since he was instrumental in putting Bugnini in power, does not have much credibility beyond his infallible teachings.  That Holy Office letter is also doubtfully magisterial, though I'm not sure about that.  I don't know if letters are in the same league as encylicals.

    You will only enrage the Feeneyites by talking about Father Feeney's excommunication when, it is an indubitable fact, other kinds of heretics -- if Father Feeney was a heretic, which I'm not sure about -- were running rampant in the Church and little was done to stop them.  It just makes it look like there was a conspiracy against the truth.  But the reality is that Feeneyism ( on the right ) and Vatican II-style religious indifferentism ( on the left ) are BOTH errors.  

    The connection that Feeneyites make between Vatican II religious indifferentism and the idea of implicit faith doesn't wash.  Implicit faith has been taught for centuries, and was never confused with religious indifferentism.  You aren't making the distinction that needs to be made.

    Religious indifferentism says other "faiths" have merit and souls can be saved in them.  Implicit faith says souls are saved BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH even if they happen to be in another faith or in no faith at all.  They would have to have invincible ignorance.  Invincible ignorance can help exonerate certain souls, but who knows how many people qualify? It's not something anyone would want to count on.

    Have blind faith in St. Alphonsus.  God put him here to help us through this mess, I'm nearly convinced.  All his writings were examined with a fine-toothed comb and there was NO TRACE of error found in any of them.  

    Instead of going to Pius XII, it's much better to focus on the fact that great theologians like St. Alphonsus and Adolphe Tanquerey ( whose writings in my opinion are up there with the best ) and pretty much everyone else for centuries taught BoD and BoB and implicit faith.  I also try to remind the Feeneyites that implicit faith was taught for centuries upon centuries and no Pope ever condemned it.  So even if it weren't true, it is, manifestly and undeniably, an allowed opinion.  

    The contradiction that you all see with the Council of Florence is not really there.  Mgr. Fenton is not my favorite writer, you have to sift the good from the bad, but it's very simple.  Those with baptism of desire become members of the Church by desire -- they are not outside the Church in the way that the Jєωs, heretics, etc. spoken of at Florence are outside the Church.  

    Unfortunately many Feeneyites, I think, like the Jansenists whom they resemble in so many ways, base their entire identity as Catholics around this error.  It's apparent that many people who are Feeneyites talk about almost nothing else.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline roscoe

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #19 on: April 02, 2011, 04:57:33 PM »
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  • The prev poster has never apologised to this Forum for posting a blasphemous, photoshopped pic of Pope Pius XII(XIII) invoking the Devil.

    There is No Such Thing as a 'Feeneyite'-- Fr Feeney was just a normal Jesuit.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Raoul76

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #20 on: April 02, 2011, 05:01:19 PM »
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  • Raoul76 said:
    Quote
    So even if it [ implicit faith ] weren't true, it is, manifestly and undeniably, an allowed opinion.


    I mean it WAS an allowed opinion for a while, now it's probably a dogma, having been taught by a consensus of theologians and by Pius XII ( who, whatever my misgivings about him, was a true Pope ).
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline roscoe

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #21 on: April 02, 2011, 05:07:45 PM »
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  • The Jesuits are the archenemies of the heretical Jansenists. Any comparison of Fr Feeney with Jansenism is as vicious, absurd and spiteful as posting a blasphemous, photoshopped pic of Pope Pacelli invoking the Devil.

    I do not have Raoul on Hide because I enjoy debunking his Crap. I am not surprised however that no one is hiding him here in this Jansenist /'sede'/ v2 forum.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Jehanne

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #22 on: April 02, 2011, 05:47:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    As someone who once suffered from semi-Feeneyite scruples, let me give some advice to those who are trying to enlighten the Feeney crowd.

    Forget about using Pius XII and excommunication and the letter of the Vatican II Cardinal.  Pius XII, since he came right before Vatican II, since he was instrumental in putting Bugnini in power, does not have much credibility beyond his infallible teachings.  That Holy Office letter is also doubtfully magisterial, though I'm not sure about that.  I don't know if letters are in the same league as encylicals.

    You will only enrage the Feeneyites by talking about Father Feeney's excommunication when, it is an indubitable fact, other kinds of heretics -- if Father Feeney was a heretic, which I'm not sure about -- were running rampant in the Church and little was done to stop them.  It just makes it look like there was a conspiracy against the truth.  But the reality is that Feeneyism ( on the right ) and Vatican II-style religious indifferentism ( on the left ) are BOTH errors.  

    The connection that Feeneyites make between Vatican II religious indifferentism and the idea of implicit faith doesn't wash.  Implicit faith has been taught for centuries, and was never confused with religious indifferentism.  You aren't making the distinction that needs to be made.

    Religious indifferentism says other "faiths" have merit and souls can be saved in them.  Implicit faith says souls are saved BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH even if they happen to be in another faith or in no faith at all.  They would have to have invincible ignorance.  Invincible ignorance can help exonerate certain souls, but who knows how many people qualify? It's not something anyone would want to count on.

    Have blind faith in St. Alphonsus.  God put him here to help us through this mess, I'm nearly convinced.  All his writings were examined with a fine-toothed comb and there was NO TRACE of error found in any of them.  

    Instead of going to Pius XII, it's much better to focus on the fact that great theologians like St. Alphonsus and Adolphe Tanquerey ( whose writings in my opinion are up there with the best ) and pretty much everyone else for centuries taught BoD and BoB and implicit faith.  I also try to remind the Feeneyites that implicit faith was taught for centuries upon centuries and no Pope ever condemned it.  So even if it weren't true, it is, manifestly and undeniably, an allowed opinion.  

    The contradiction that you all see with the Council of Florence is not really there.  Mgr. Fenton is not my favorite writer, you have to sift the good from the bad, but it's very simple.  Those with baptism of desire become members of the Church by desire -- they are not outside the Church in the way that the Jєωs, heretics, etc. spoken of at Florence are outside the Church.  

    Unfortunately many Feeneyites, I think, like the Jansenists whom they resemble in so many ways, base their entire identity as Catholics around this error.  It's apparent that many people who are Feeneyites talk about almost nothing else.  


    You need to read this article on the changes to Raccolta which occurred under Pius XII's watch:

    http://catholicism.org/law-of-praying-is-the-law-of-believing.html

    As for "implicit faith" being "taught" for centuries, it only goes back to the 17th-century, and even then, it was only a minority opinion, at least at first; no one, to my knowledge, was teaching it prior to that time.  If you read The Catholic Dogma by the late Father Muller, he says this about explicit faith, "We also learn from Christ and his Church, that the explicit faith in the mysteries of the Holy Trinity and of the Incarnation of the Son of God is also required as a necessary means of salvation." (The Catholic Dogma, pg. 10)  That's a pretty strong statement.  Even the Council of Trent appeared to teach the same thing,

    "But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons;..." (Session 6, Chapter VIII, Decree Concerning Justification -- Jan. 13, 1547)

    Again, interpreting Trent in light of Saint Thomas, we read this,

    "After grace had been revealed, both learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above (Question 1, Article 8). As to other minute points in reference to the articles of the Incarnation, men have been bound to believe them more or less explicitly according to each one's state and office." (ST, II II, 2, 7)


    Offline Jehanne

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #23 on: April 02, 2011, 05:57:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Raoul76 said:
    Quote
    So even if it [ implicit faith ] weren't true, it is, manifestly and undeniably, an allowed opinion.


    I mean it WAS an allowed opinion for a while, now it's probably a dogma, having been taught by a consensus of theologians and by Pius XII ( who, whatever my misgivings about him, was a true Pope ).


    Implicit faith is definitively not a Catholic dogma or even a doctrine, for no Pope and/or Council has ever declared it to be such.  To say that it is a dogma is to say that Father Muller was a heretic.  Somehow, it "worked its way" into the realm of theological opinion, but I think that it was, in fact, condemned:

    Pope Innocent XI -- Condemned:  "A faith indicated from the testimony of creation, or from a similar motive, suffices for justification."

    Offline roscoe

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #24 on: April 02, 2011, 06:09:26 PM »
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  • Upon further reflection, let me be the first to put the heretical Raoul on Hide.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #25 on: April 02, 2011, 06:43:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Pope Innocent XI -- Condemned:  "A faith indicated from the testimony of creation, or from a similar motive, suffices for justification."


    This means nothing where the various, related arguments are concerned.  Even if a man had supernatural Faith, without supernatural charity he cannot be justified.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #26 on: April 02, 2011, 06:44:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    Upon further reflection, let me be the first to put the heretical Raoul on Hide.


    Thanks for announcing it :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Jehanne

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    The Feeneyite Heresy
    « Reply #27 on: April 02, 2011, 07:24:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Pope Innocent XI -- Condemned:  "A faith indicated from the testimony of creation, or from a similar motive, suffices for justification."


    This means nothing where the various, related arguments are concerned.  Even if a man had supernatural Faith, without supernatural charity he cannot be justified.


    Pope Innocent XI said nothing about "natural faith" in his condemnation.  The fact is, historically, Saint Thomas taught the need for explicit faith in the Blessed Trinity and Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  If he was wrong on that, then he was wrong on everything else, and you should stop quoting from him.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #28 on: April 02, 2011, 08:09:51 PM »
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  • Faith does not justify.  No one here is arguing it does or can.  That is the point.  Thus, the words of Innocent III change nothing with respect to these discussions.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."