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Author Topic: The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law  (Read 7296 times)

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Offline Alex117

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The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
« on: October 23, 2012, 12:17:28 AM »
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  • I've been reading about sedevacantism lately, and have heard many opposing opinions from both sides of the debate concerning its truthfulness. The latest article I have read is The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law, by John Salza, J.D.. A link to this article can be found here:

    http://www.scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Feature_-_The_Errors_of_Sedevacantism.pdf

    In this article, the author states that, in accordance with Canon Law, no one may judge a Cardinal of heresy except for the Pope. Even though the author backs this up by quoting Canon Law, that sounds like a bunch of baloney to me. When a Cardinal publicly expounds modernism, the fruits of Protestantism, the need for ecuмensism, etc., how can it be right that only the Pope may say, "That Cardinal is a heretic,"? Additionally, how can it be right to allow the Cardinal to expound his heresy, to corrupt his subordinates, and to demand obedience to him and his heretical thinking until the Pope deems him a heretic? What if the Pope is a heretic? Who can judge him of heresy?

    Can anybody refute this article with sound arguments? With my scant knowledge of Church history, doctrines, and Canon Law, I am in no position to do so myself. The best that I can do is say, "His articles sound like baloney to me," but that "argument" doesn't put my mind at ease.


    Offline Ambrose

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 01:44:21 AM »
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  • Your question highlights a serious misunderstanding of what sedevacantism teaches.  Sedevacantism is not a public binding judgment, it is a private judgment of the evidence.

    Can we deny what we plainly see?  If a man is not a Catholic, he has no claim to the papacy.  That is common sense, and is taught by the theologians and canonists.  

    Because sedevacantism is not a public judgment, it does not bind Catholics en masse to agree with this.  Each Catholic must individually examine the evidence, and allow his own conscience to bind him to what he knows is the truth.  

    Also, another point to ponder is that most sedevacantists believe that Paul VI and his successors were heretics from the start and were never popes, so we are not judging the pope, since they never became pope to begin with.  They are merely false claimants to the office, therefore there is no debate over judging the pope.

    I would advise you to read this article.  It covers many key points on private judgments prior to the judgment of the Church.   http://strobertbellarmine.net/judgeheresy.html

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Alex117

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 02:14:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Your question highlights a serious misunderstanding of what sedevacantism teaches.  Sedevacantism is not a public binding judgment, it is a private judgment of the evidence.

    Can we deny what we plainly see?  If a man is not a Catholic, he has no claim to the papacy.  That is common sense, and is taught by the theologians and canonists.  

    Because sedevacantism is not a public judgment, it does not bind Catholics en masse to agree with this.  Each Catholic must individually examine the evidence, and allow his own conscience to bind him to what he knows is the truth.  

    Also, another point to ponder is that most sedevacantists believe that Paul VI and his successors were heretics from the start and were never popes, so we are not judging the pope, since they never became pope to begin with.  They are merely false claimants to the office, therefore there is no debate over judging the pope.

    I actually do understand all of this, and did before reading the article. However, your question of

    "Can we deny what we plainly see?"

    is exactly what I'm asking here. Is Canon Law telling me to deny that a Cardinal that does heretical things is not a heretic because the Pope hasn't judged as such? My common sense is saying, "No, that's stupid," but then again, as the author shows, it says it right there in Canon Law.

    That is why I created this thread asking someone to rebuke the author, as I can't see any way to.

    Offline Alex117

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 02:29:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    I would advise you to read this article.  It covers many key points on private judgments prior to the judgment of the Church.   http://strobertbellarmine.net/judgeheresy.html

    I forgot to mention your article in my last post. Thank you for the link. I will read it once my eyes aren't so tired from all of the other reading I did today  :laugh1:

    Offline Deliveringit

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 03:09:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    The latest article I have read is The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law, by John Salza

    Can anybody refute this article with sound arguments?


    Yes, here is a link to Sedevacantists who make a very good case refuting John Salza's argument against sedevacantism,,,

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/john_salza.php


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 05:59:49 AM »
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  • The following is the most complete and accurate response to John Salza out there:

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/the_chair_is_still_empty.htm
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Alex117

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 12:11:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Deliveringit
    Yes, here is a link to Sedevacantists who make a very good case refuting John Salza's argument against sedevacantism,,,

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/john_salza.php

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    The following is the most complete and accurate response to John Salza out there:

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/the_chair_is_still_empty.htm

    These articles are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the links, gentleman.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 01:10:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    Quote from: Deliveringit
    Yes, here is a link to Sedevacantists who make a very good case refuting John Salza's argument against sedevacantism,,,

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/john_salza.php

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    The following is the most complete and accurate response to John Salza out there:

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/the_chair_is_still_empty.htm

    These articles are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the links, gentleman.


    You are quite welcome my friend.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 01:12:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    Quote from: Deliveringit
    Yes, here is a link to Sedevacantists who make a very good case refuting John Salza's argument against sedevacantism,,,

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Articles/john_salza.php

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    The following is the most complete and accurate response to John Salza out there:

    http://www.novusordowatch.org/the_chair_is_still_empty.htm

    These articles are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the links, gentleman.


    BTW - Can you let me know what you think of the second article when you get a chance?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Alex117

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    The Errors of Sedevacantism and Ecclesiastical Law
    « Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 05:04:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    BTW - Can you let me know what you think of the second article when you get a chance?

    I have only read Part 1 of the article, but I must say that the author's reasoning seems quite good so far. I knew something was fishy about Mr. Salza's reasoning from the beginning, but Gregorius's and Br. Dimond's refutation completely smashed whatever persuasive hold that Mr. Salza's reasoning had over me.

    Gregorious's article also spoke of the Catholics who resist the Pope being in the wrong, and while it has not completely convinced me of becoming a sedevacantist, it has seriously put my stance of resistance into question. I'm going to have to study more before I will commit to anything other than resistance at the moment, however. Perhaps you have some articles, websites, or books you can recommend me?

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 06:34:32 PM »
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  • Alex,

    I would suggest that you give some consideration to the Bull Unam Sanctam, promulgated by Pope Boniface VIII on 18th November 1302, especially these closing lines:

    Original:

    Est autem haec auctoritas, etsi data sit homini, et exerceatur per hominem, non humana, sed potius divina potestas, ore divino Petro data, sibique suisque successoribus in ipso Christo, quem confessus fuit, petra firmata, dicente Domino ipsi Petro: Quodcunque ligaveris, etc. [Matt. 16:19.] Quicunque igitur huic potestati a Deo sic ordinatae resistit, Dei ordinationi resistit, nisi duo, sicut Manichaeus, fingat esse principia, quod falsum et haereticuм judicamus, quia, testante Moyse, non in principiis, sed in principio coelum Deus creavit et terram. [Gen. 1:1.]

    Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus dicimus, definimus et pronunciamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis.


    Ref: http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/6_ch01.htm

    ----------------

    Translation:

    This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Matt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1].

    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.


    Ref: http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

    ----------------

    Accordingly, if Benedict XVI is the true current Roman Pontiff, then to resist his official commands is tantamount to resisting Almighty God, thus putting your salvation in grave peril.

    On the other hand, if Benedict XVI is NOT the true current Roman Pontiff, then you are free to resist his official commands without thereby endangering your salvation.


    Offline Alex117

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    « Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 12:21:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Accordingly, if Benedict XVI is the true current Roman Pontiff, then to resist his official commands is tantamount to resisting Almighty God, thus putting your salvation in grave peril.

    On the other hand, if Benedict XVI is NOT the true current Roman Pontiff, then you are free to resist his official commands without thereby endangering your salvation.

    Oh Lord, Catholicism can be so confusing sometimes. I see the reasoning in your words, but I don't know if I can truly believe that the seat of St. Peter has been vacant for the past 50 years without dying of sadness. It's already hard enough acknowledging that all of the Church has basically fallen into apostasy as they throw our Lord and King off of His throne and replace him with man.

    I will have to meditate on this.

    P.S. It wasn't I who down-thumbed your post. It was someone else. I'll go up-thumb your post to prove it!

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 05:28:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    BTW - Can you let me know what you think of the second article when you get a chance?

    I have only read Part 1 of the article, but I must say that the author's reasoning seems quite good so far. I knew something was fishy about Mr. Salza's reasoning from the beginning, but Gregorius's and Br. Dimond's refutation completely smashed whatever persuasive hold that Mr. Salza's reasoning had over me.

    Gregorious's article also spoke of the Catholics who resist the Pope being in the wrong, and while it has not completely convinced me of becoming a sedevacantist, it has seriously put my stance of resistance into question. I'm going to have to study more before I will commit to anything other than resistance at the moment, however. Perhaps you have some articles, websites, or books you can recommend me?


    The sad thing about anti-SVs is that they should know better and I sometimes suspect they do.  The are left with ad hominem attacks and spouting errors.  They seem to think (rightly or wrongly) that the average Joe will take them at their word without checking their ipsi dixits (asserting a statement is true merely because they asserted it).

    Here is one article:

    http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/11Jul/jul11ftt.htm

    Here is a dogma of the Church that should send the Recognizers and Resisters scampering but it doesn't:


    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. (UNAM SANCTAM, Pope Boniface VIII)

    They rightly know that the could resist a sinful command to INDIVIDUALS such as "Stomp on the cross" or "bring me a hooker".  

    But we cannot resist what VALID POPES bind on the Church such as:

    1. Ecuмenical Councils

    2.  New Sacraments

    3.  New Mass

    4.  New Code of Canon Law.

    5.  Encyclicals

    6.  New Catechisms

    But it was not valid Popes that have "bound" the strangeness above upon us these past 50 years.  I didn't mention the new rosary or stations of the cross or new exorcism rite or the approval of a consecration of the Eucharist where there is no consecration formula or that they could receive objects of false religions with esteem or worship at false Church's and approve of their existence and works since any of the above 6 official acts of the Church is enough to show that they cannot be Popes unless the Catholic Church is reletivistic and can contradict herself.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 03:53:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    I see the reasoning in your words, but I don't know if I can truly believe that the seat of St. Peter has been vacant for the past 50 years without dying of sadness.


    Alex, you mean well, but I can tell you that your sadness over the mere absence of a true pope is as nothing compared to the sadness of a generation and more of honest Catholics who have lived through those 50 years to see the gradual and deliberate destruction of the Catholic religion and its substitution with a parody of itself, all done with the connivance of a run of false ‘popes’.

    You are right to meditate upon these matters. I anticipate that, with appropriate study and the grace of God, you will in time see your way through any present confusion.

    Quote from: You also
    Perhaps you have some articles, websites, or books you can recommend me?

    For starters, I would recommend an exploration of the CMRI website at http://www.cmri.org/index.html

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #14 on: October 25, 2012, 04:15:22 PM »
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  • P.S.
    Alex, unless you already know of it, I would add that the following website is also worthy of your consideration:
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/