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Author Topic: The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.  (Read 3470 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
« on: February 22, 2010, 03:22:35 PM »
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  • Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Caminus

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 04:52:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is also yet another of the classic double-minded, Jekyll and Hyde speeches of Pius XII


    Anytime you see Mike write the above words, you are sure to be in the presence of philosophical distinctions that he simply cannot comprehend, usually pertaining to the practical-moral order.  Such ignorance is usually not reprehensible, but it becomes such when the ignoramous, confronting these elusive distinctions, launches into a tirade against good and holy Roman Pontiffs, only to end in audaciously mentally deposing him.  Thus the disease of the mentality of SV's.    


    Offline Matthew D Hardin

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 10:13:49 PM »
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  • Let me begin by saying that I am not a cheerleader for Pius XII. It was his weakness and failure to suppress modernist elements that gave us John XXIII and the "Second" Vatican Council.

    That said, how can you assert that a speech given to Italian lawyers is an infallible declaration, Raoul?

    Offline SJB

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 11:13:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew D. Hardin
    Let me begin by saying that I am not a cheerleader for Pius XII. It was his weakness and failure to suppress modernist elements that gave us John XXIII and the "Second" Vatican Council.

    That said, how can you assert that a speech given to Italian lawyers is an infallible declaration, Raoul?


    The proper principles were taught in Ci Riesce. That is all that matters.

    Here's a quote on "Error has no rights" from a post V2 reference book; after correctly explaining the phrase, viz. the rights of a sincere but erroneous conscience are in no wise equal to the rights of sincere and correct conscience, it succinctly says, "The Second Vatican Council rejected this thinking in its Declaration on Religious Freedom (n.3)."

    Quote from: Pope Pius XII, Ci Riesce, 1953
    "Above all, it must be clearly stated that no human authority, no state, no community of states, whatever be their religious character, can give a positive command or positive authorisation to teach or to do that which would be contrary to religious truth or moral good. Such a command or such an authorization would have no obligatory power and would remain without effect. No authority may give such a command, because it is contrary to nature to oblige the spirit and the will of man to error and evil, or to consider one or the other as indifferent. Not even God could give such a positive command or positive authorisation, because it would be in contradiction to His absolute truth and sanctity."

    "Thus the two principles are clarified to which recourse must be had in concrete cases for the answer to the serious question concerning the attitude which the jurist, the statesman and the sovereign Catholic state is to adopt in consideration of the community of nations in regard to a formula of religious and moral toleration as described above.

    First: that which does not correspond to truth or to the norm of morality objectively has no right to exist, to be spread or to be activated.

    Secondly: failure to impede this with civil laws and coercive measures can nevertheless be justified in the interests of a higher and more general good."  

    ....................................................................


    Fr. Wiltgen, The Rhine Flows into the Tiber:

    "The next speaker was Cardinal Ottaviani. He said that the declaration stated a principle which had always been recognized, namely, that no one could be forced in religious matters. But the text was guilty of exaggeration in stating that "he is worthy of honor" who obeys his own conscience. It would be better to say that such a person was deserving of tolerance or of respect and charity. "The principle that each individual has the right to follow his own conscience must suppose that that conscience is not contrary to the divine law, he asserted. There was missing in the text "an explicit and solemn affirmation of the first and genuine right to religious freedom, which objectively belongs to those who are members of the true revealed religion." Their right was at once an objective and a subjective right, he said, while for those in error there was only a subjective right."

    The Cardinal said that it was "a very serious matter" to assert that every kind of religion had the freedom to propagate itself. That would "clearly result in harm for those nations where the Catholic religion is the one generally adhered to by the people." He also said that an Ecuмenical Council of the Catholic Church could not ignore the fact "that the rights of the true religion are based, not only on merely natural rights, but also, and to a much greater degree, on the rights which flow from revelation."

    The Rhine Flows into the Tiber, p. 164

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Matthew D Hardin

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 12:03:26 PM »
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  • It really doesn't matter what was taught at all, if the text was not an act of the magesterium. If Pius XII was speaking ex cathedra we would either have to follow his principles or reject his papacy. He wasn't, however, so it is a moot point.


    Offline SJB

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 01:04:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew D. Hardin
    It really doesn't matter what was taught at all, if the text was not an act of the magesterium. If Pius XII was speaking ex cathedra we would either have to follow his principles or reject his papacy. He wasn't, however, so it is a moot point.


    Except it not a moot point. Just because it's not an ex catherdra pronouncement does not mean it can be disregarded. It is the pope using his teaching office to teach.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Matthew D Hardin

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 04:52:47 PM »
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  • For any teaching to bind the conscience of the faithful, it must come from the magesterium. If extramagesterial pronouncements are made, they are interesting for historical purposes, but they have no bearing on what I may or may not believe as a Catholic.

    Offline SJB

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 12:40:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew D. Hardin
    For any teaching to bind the conscience of the faithful, it must come from the magesterium. If extramagesterial pronouncements are made, they are interesting for historical purposes, but they have no bearing on what I may or may not believe as a Catholic.


    The catechism is not a "magesterial" pronouncement, yet you accept it.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 01:54:50 PM »
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  • "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Belloc

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 01:58:47 PM »
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  • name the obsessing poster

    -posts incessantly about one topic, SV
    -posts copiously in one thread
    -most posts are angry and vindictive
    -apparently has little mroe to do then ball fists, shoot steam out ears and again, post one one thing to flog a dead horse

    add it up, folks and who do you have

    well if you guessed LoT for 1-4, you would be correct!

    LoT-your ultimate goal in these threads/posts is?????
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #10 on: February 24, 2010, 02:13:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    name the obsessing poster

    -posts incessantly about one topic, SV
    -posts copiously in one thread
    -most posts are angry and vindictive
    -apparently has little mroe to do then ball fists, shoot steam out ears and again, post one one thing to flog a dead horse

    add it up, folks and who do you have

    well if you guessed LoT for 1-4, you would be correct!

    LoT-your ultimate goal in these threads/posts is?????


    To get us united behind the truth so we can more effectively convert the world.

    Potential converts see the inconsistency of the SSPX and the small numbers of the SV (which must mean that they can't be right).  Combine this with convenience and they stay where they are.  

    If we all united behind the TRUTH, we would get somewhere.

    We need to get to the root cause of all our problems and it starts at the very tippy top.  A fish rots from the head.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Raoul76

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 02:23:32 AM »
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  • I apologize for writing here that Pius XII's ideas were "Satanic" and for the usual hysterical tone that I used at that time.

    But I have to say, reading this over, it reminded me why I had concerns about this Pope. This Ci Riesce indeed is a strange, strange docuмent.

    One of these days it wouldn't be a bad idea to look at Ci Riesce and the Christmas Message in 1944 in a more moderate and charitable way, always giving Pius XII the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst as I did before, to see if someone can find a more positive light in which to read them, as we are obligated to do when it concerns a pontiff.

    I confess that for the moment the best I can do is to say that he was, at the very least, overly optimistic when he said things like this:

    Quote
    "The clear fact that relations between individuals of various nations and between nations themselves are growing in multiplicity and intensity makes daily more urgent a right ordering of international relations, both private and public; all the more so since this mutual drawing together is caused not only by vastly improved technological progress and by free choice but also by the more profound action of an intrinsic law of development. This movement, then, is not to be repressed but fostered and promoted."


    I was correct before when I expressed concern with his idea of an "intrinsic law of development" which in reality is based on manipulation of the ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic elite. However to say this is "Satanic" would be to call anyone Satanic who ever expressed any hopes for a better world post-WWII. I have to keep in mind, that I have 20/20 hindsight to work with. That being said, one would have expected someone with as much diplomatic experience as Pius XII to be a bit more skeptical of this kind of "progress."
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 02:31:07 AM »
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  • It's obviously a docuмent colored by the politics of the time, when the United Nations were closing in on Germany and Japan.

    Although not yet officially constituted, the UN was in the works and was intended to be a lot more than what it turned out to be.

    http://www.un.org/en/aboutun/history/1941-1950.shtml

    Offline Pelly

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 04:41:36 AM »
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  • Did this Pope foster NWO? I've read that he condemned Illuminism, which is very prominent in theories about NWO, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, etc. The full docuмent is here.

    Offline bowler

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    The End of History: "Ci Riesce" of Pius XII.
    « Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 10:41:51 AM »
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  • Mary Ball Martinez; "The Undermoning of the Catholic Church"

    That the Second Vatican Council is the point of  departure for so many commentators is understandable. While a look at events of earlier years would make it easy for them to pick up the strands of change, it would also mean having to confront the figure of Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, a discomforting prospect for liberal and conservative alike. For the Left, with the passage of the years, if not in his lifetime, Pacelli is an arch-conservative, sadly unenlightened and probably anti-semitic. For the Right, at this distance, a saint. In both cases his life and work have come to be overlaid with pious and impious myth. Probably no pope in history has been as misunderstood. He has been revered and scorned, loved and hated for all the things he never did and never was. No pope in history did as much to change the Church; yet Catholic conservatives look on him as the last firm pillar of orthodoxy. No pope in history ever did as much for the Jєωs; yet Jєωιѕн writers continue to accuse him of indifference to their fate. No pope did as much to oblige the Marxists; yet he is hailed in the West as an anti-Communist hero of the Cold War. In his long years as Vatican diplomat when he pioneered what has come to be called Ostpolitik, in his decade as Secretary of State to Pius XI, in his nearly twenty years as Supreme Pontiff to be followed in extension through the pontificate of his protege and chosen heir, Giovanni Battista Montini, the work of Pius XII spanned nearly a century.

    If the facts of the transformation of the Church are to be honestly accounted for, then the facts of the Pacelli contribution to them will have to be made a part of that account. Ample material is available. With the Second World War so long over, American and German archives have been opened and memoirs of important figures of the time are being published. Vatican secrecy, however, can be and often is, everlasting. It was only the accusation against Pius XII concerning his alleged indifference to the Jєωs that caused a limited section of Vatican Archives to be opened to four Jesuit scholars in the 1970's. With or without Vatican cooperation, however, there is still a wealth of Pacelli material available, enough to leave only the foolhardy willing to continue to cling to the old myths.

    Granted that Eugenio Pacelli was a giant among popes and that his period of activity was unusually long, one may ask what a pope has to do with revolution. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, everything. While it would be hard to find a guerrilla movement, be it the Italian Red Brigades or the Peruvian Shining Path that was not inspired and directed by university students and professors, in the Church with its unbudgeable hierarchical structure, the intellectual top, the level at which theologians move, is not high enough. Any mutation in doctrine or practice must come from the very top, from the papacy itself. There is no other way. While Eugenio Pacelli was the dominant figure in the undermining process he was not alone. Four other Italians shared his enterprise. Giacomo Delia Chiesa, Angelo Roncalli and Giovanni Battista Montini were popes while Pietro Gasparri, as Secretary of State, conducted his phase of the operation as though he were. What the five accomplished was no small thing, being the transformation of the single largest religious body in the world, a body which had gone virtually unchanged for nearly two thousand years. Unchanged, it had weathered the great break away four hundred years before, even gaining from the blow a certain strength through forced redefinition of its own identity. The Protestant shock had been a severing. What has happened in our day has been no break but rather an inside turnover, something altogether more drastic.

    Measured against what had been taken to be the Catholic identity for nineteen centuries the undermined Church of today is something quite new, While the outward structures of its diminished bulk have been made morerigid than ever, there has been...