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Author Topic: The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958  (Read 8582 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2013, 03:55:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
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    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Not crazy by any means.

    I don't think so either.  It makes about as much sense as any other explanation of this 50 year mess.  And BXVI, who would be the first one validly elected since Cardinal Siri's death, has arguably been the most orthodox since VII and was potentially coerced into stepping down.

    The communists and the jews would definitely prefer Roncalli to Siri and Bergy to Ratzinger.


    Granted, it appeared that BXVI was orthodox, but I still question that.  I would agree that he was probably the best of the anti-popes (if that is possible).



    You must be joking; the man is a modernist apostate heretic through and through.

    His whole "traditional conservative" aura, wherever it came from, makes him all the more dangerous because he deceives those who want to be deceived.

    "He looks traditional!" they say, and swoosh, they're duped.



    I am definitely referring to appearances.  Compared to JPII and Francis though, we heard less of what he said/did (the only thing I recall being "news" was his condom comment).


    Benedict/Ratzinger was not orthodox.  He did not believe in the Resurrection of bodies or the Real Presence in the Eucharist.  Vatican 2 was his baby.  He just had better tastes in music and liturgy than the others.  He loved participating in Jєωιѕн and Muslim worship and esteemed the Buddhist religion and received all sorts of things that symbolized false religions with esteem.  

    He was not orthodox at all.  But he would make orthodox sounding statements here and there, and would contradict them in other places just as Pius X said modernists do.  He is not as ignorant as Bergi perhaps.  More well read, more scholarly.  He knows what the Church taught and contradicted it as can be noted by his "counter-syllabus" statement for instance.


    What I find interesting about Benedict XVI is that he had made anti-Vatican II comments years ago.  I don't remember exactly when and what he said, but I think it was in the first years of implementation.  I find it odd that someone who was clearly against it changed his tune somewhere along the way.  I wonder why and how that happened.  I also wonder if he later had misgivings again and whether this was a reason for his abdication.

    Offline Geremia

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #46 on: October 29, 2013, 01:31:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    M Martin said that Pope Siri was elected & then declined. This appears incorrect as he took the name of Pope Gregory.
    Very true
    The triple-agent Malachi Martin said they threatened to αssαssιnαtҽ his family, yet it would take a much greater threat than that to cause any subsequent "resignation" of the papacy to be invalid, wouldn't it? I can't imagine Card. Siri to be the coward Malachi Martin portrays him to be.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #47 on: October 29, 2013, 01:48:52 PM »
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  • Canon Law doesn't stipulate how severe the threat must be in order to invalidate a resignation.

    Offline Geremia

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #48 on: October 29, 2013, 01:53:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Canon Law doesn't stipulate how severe the threat must be in order to invalidate a resignation.
    It must be just to protect him were an opportunity arise for him to renege the resignation.
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    Offline Geremia

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #49 on: October 29, 2013, 02:25:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: IllyricuмSacrum
    "After me, the deluge." - Pius XII
    Wow, when and where did he say that?
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    Offline Geremia

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #50 on: October 29, 2013, 03:26:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    4) Roncalli was notorious for his association with high ranking Communists (and Freemasons).  US State Department warned Pius XII of this and kept a file on Roncalli in that regard.
    Is that file public now?
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    5) Two independent sources claim that Roncalli knew beforehand that his election would be arranged, and one of these explicitly states that it was planned by Masonic forces in the Vatican.
    What were these sources? Are they now public?
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    6) Once source indicates that Siri was pressured (by Communist agents within the conclave) into resigning by threats of atrocities against bishops and priests operating behind the Iron Curtain, and another even suggets that Russia threatened to nuke the Vatican.
    I've heard this before.
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    13) Roncalli's first encyclical Pacem in Terris referred in very cryptic terms to a "mysterious force" rising in the world.  "Mysterious Force" was an early name for Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ (look it up).
    That's interesting, but I can't find "mysterious force" in Pacem in Terris.
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    14) Roncalli's first appointment as Cardinal was Montini, who had been refused the red hat by Pius XII because he was implicated with outing bishops and priests operating clandestinely behind the Iron Curtain.
    Wow, he was his 1st appointment!
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    15) Montini publicly wore the Judaeo-Freemasonic "ephod of Caiaphas" but stopped wearing it after being outed by the Abbe De Nantes regarding this.
    I knew that, but didn't know Abbé de Nantes put an end to it. Are you referring to this article?
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    16) Former FBI Consultant cites State Deparment docuмents (we know the US had moles inside the conclave just as the Soviets did) which indicate that Siri was elected and even mentioned the name he chose (Gregory XVII).
    Was Card. Siri ever asked what name he would chose were he elected? I suppose it is interesting that no one credible claims he chose a different name…
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    18) Smoke signal "problems" in 1958, where the smoke was white for a full five minutes and even sources within the conclave confirmed that a Pope had been elected.
    Yeah, that's the best historical evidence something very fishy occurred…
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    21) Karol Wojtyla was suspected of being a "Pax Priest" (Communist collaborator).  While Cardinal Wyszynski was under house arrest, Bishop Wojtyla was touring the world giving lectures on phenomenology.
    lol
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    22) V2 reads like a veritable Freemasonic Manifesto, enshrining into NO theology the principles of liberte (Religious Liberty), egalite (priesthood of the faithful, collegiality), and fraternite (Ecuмenism).
    indeed
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    26) St. Francis of Assisi gave prophecies about an uncanonically elected pope who would try to destroy the Church.
    Where those his words? "Uncanonically elected"?
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    Offline LoverOfTradition

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #51 on: October 29, 2013, 08:10:54 PM »
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  • An interesting quote of his:

    "If the Church weren't Divine, the Council would have buried Her." -Cardinal Siri


    So, did he choose a Successor? If so, he must be in hiding? How are we to know? Are we supposed to just wait?

    “I saw one of my successors, of the same name, taking to flight over the bodies of his brethren. He will take refuge in disguise somewhere and after a short retirement he will die a cruel death.  The present wickedness of the world is only the beginning of the sorrows which must take place before the end of the world…” -Pope Pius X

    This always makes me think of Cardinal Siri. After all, his name was Giuseppe, which is Joseph in English.

    One thing is for sure, this is what we're living in now:

    “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles to have expired. But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters….”
     
    “An unhappy time is coming of revolt and dissension in the church. Oh my children, do not let yourselves be lead astray by innovations. Rally and hold fast. Stay on the same road, the same foot paths as your fathers trod. Preserve and maintain what they have taught you. It will be enough if you resist the attacks, the tempests, the hurricanes that will arise which such violence...”
    ~ St. Nicholas of Flue
     


    Offline Memento

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #52 on: October 29, 2013, 10:00:58 PM »
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  • Ladislaus: St. Francis of Assisi gave prophecies about an uncanonically elected pope who would try to destroy the Church
    Geremia:Where those his words? "Uncanonically elected"
    ________________________________________________
    Novus Ordo Watch website quote of Fr. Herman Bernard Kramer's "The Book of Destiny" commentary applies to this question:


    Fr. Herman Kramer, The Book of Destiny (1956)
    "If Satan would contrive to hinder a papal election, the Church would suffer great travail."


    In 1956, Fr. Herman Bernard Kramer published a work called The Book of Destiny (Imprimatur), which is an interpretation of the Apocalypse, the last book of the Holy Bible (otherwise known as the book of Revelation). 
    In Apocalypse 12:1-5, we read:
    "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne."

    Catholic biblical scholars typically see "the woman" as a symbol of both the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Catholic Church. Applying this prophecy to the Church, Fr. Kramer comments (bold print added):

    ". . . However, the text demands a more specific application to the definite future event to which the prophecy obviously points, and in which the Church suffers the keenest pangs passing at that time through the greatest crisis of her whole life. In that travail, she gives birth to some definite 'person' who is to RULE the Church with a rod of iron (verse 5). It then points to a conflict waged within the Church to elect one who was to 'rule all nations' in the manner clearly stated. In accord with the text this is unmistakably a PAPAL ELECTION, for only Christ and His Vicar have the divine right to rule ALL NATIONS. Furthermore, the Church does not travail in anguish at EVERY papal election which can be held without trouble or danger. But at this time the great powers may take a menacing attitude to hinder the election of the logical and expected candidate by threats of a general apostasy, assassination or imprisonment of this candidate if elected. This would suppose an extremely hostile mind in the governments of Europe towards the Church and would cause intense anguish to the Church, because an extended interregnum in the papacy is always disastrous and more so in a time of universal persecution. If Satan would contrive to hinder a papal election, the Church would suffer great travail.

    ". . . As a dragon, Satan through the evil world-powers of that time will enter the Church, interfere with her liberty and perhaps by stealthy suggestions having long before directed the choosing of candidates for the episcopate will now endeavor by threats of force to hinder the election of the worthiest candidate for the papacy."

    (Herman Bernard Kramer, The Book of Destiny [TAN Books Reprint, 1975], pp. 277-279.)







    Offline LoverOfTradition

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #53 on: October 29, 2013, 10:05:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Memento
    Ladislaus: St. Francis of Assisi gave prophecies about an uncanonically elected pope who would try to destroy the Church
    Geremia:Where those his words? "Uncanonically elected"
    ________________________________________________
    Novus Ordo Watch website quote of Fr. Herman Bernard Kramer's "The Book of Destiny" commentary applies to this question:


    Fr. Herman Kramer, The Book of Destiny (1956)
    "If Satan would contrive to hinder a papal election, the Church would suffer great travail."


    In 1956, Fr. Herman Bernard Kramer published a work called The Book of Destiny (Imprimatur), which is an interpretation of the Apocalypse, the last book of the Holy Bible (otherwise known as the book of Revelation). 
    In Apocalypse 12:1-5, we read:
    "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne."

    Catholic biblical scholars typically see "the woman" as a symbol of both the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Catholic Church. Applying this prophecy to the Church, Fr. Kramer comments (bold print added):

    ". . . However, the text demands a more specific application to the definite future event to which the prophecy obviously points, and in which the Church suffers the keenest pangs passing at that time through the greatest crisis of her whole life. In that travail, she gives birth to some definite 'person' who is to RULE the Church with a rod of iron (verse 5). It then points to a conflict waged within the Church to elect one who was to 'rule all nations' in the manner clearly stated. In accord with the text this is unmistakably a PAPAL ELECTION, for only Christ and His Vicar have the divine right to rule ALL NATIONS. Furthermore, the Church does not travail in anguish at EVERY papal election which can be held without trouble or danger. But at this time the great powers may take a menacing attitude to hinder the election of the logical and expected candidate by threats of a general apostasy, assassination or imprisonment of this candidate if elected. This would suppose an extremely hostile mind in the governments of Europe towards the Church and would cause intense anguish to the Church, because an extended interregnum in the papacy is always disastrous and more so in a time of universal persecution. If Satan would contrive to hinder a papal election, the Church would suffer great travail.

    ". . . As a dragon, Satan through the evil world-powers of that time will enter the Church, interfere with her liberty and perhaps by stealthy suggestions having long before directed the choosing of candidates for the episcopate will now endeavor by threats of force to hinder the election of the worthiest candidate for the papacy."

    (Herman Bernard Kramer, The Book of Destiny [TAN Books Reprint, 1975], pp. 277-279.)







    Who is/was this uncanonically elected Pope? Pope John XXIII? Pope Francis? After all, St. Francis said this.

    Offline Memento

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #54 on: October 29, 2013, 10:39:45 PM »
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  • Who is/was this uncanonically elected Pope? Pope John XXIII? Pope Francis? After all, St. Francis said this.

    LoverofTradition,  the writers from the Novus Ordo Watch site apply Fr. Kramer's commentary to John XXIII as I would too. I was not paying attention in 1958 to the election but I can tell you that the world took a great big leap down in culture and customs during the early 1960s even before Vatican II had ended.  Catholic families suffered immensely.  Some realized it outright - those would be the folks who searched out the clergy who remained true to the faith. Other Catholics suffered but they did to know why their families were falling apart at the seams - disorder in the Church was rampant with the Mass changing constantly and then by 1969 the Mass no longer reigned supreme and all hell broke loose.  That's why I agree with NO Watch's assessment of Fr. Kramer's commentary. The spiritual chastisement is immense and Fr. kramer claims it could happen with the taking away of the true pope. The evidence points to the 1958 conclave with the white smoke and all of the other irregularities mentioned before on this thread.

    Offline Geremia

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #55 on: October 30, 2013, 12:49:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: LoverOfTradition
    One thing is for sure, this is what we're living in now:

    “The Church will be punished because the majority of her members, high and low, will become so perverted. The Church will sink deeper and deeper until she will at last seem to be extinguished, and the succession of Peter and the other Apostles to have expired. But, after this, she will be victoriously exalted in the sight of all doubters….”
     
    “An unhappy time is coming of revolt and dissension in the church. Oh my children, do not let yourselves be lead astray by innovations. Rally and hold fast. Stay on the same road, the same foot paths as your fathers trod. Preserve and maintain what they have taught you. It will be enough if you resist the attacks, the tempests, the hurricanes that will arise which such violence...”
    ~ St. Nicholas of Flue
    Enough of private revelation. We're living Apocalypse 12. Look at Fr. Herman Kramer's commentary on it in his The Book of Destiny (1955) pp. 275 ff. Fr. Kramer spent 30 years working on this exegesis, completing it in 1955, a mere 6 years before Vatican II. I only present his probable conclusions, but if you want to see his logical reasons, backed up by Church Fathers, read his entire commentary on Chapter 12.

    v. 1: "And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:"
    Quote from: Fr. Kramer, pp. 276-7
    The woman of chapter twelve is not the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    According to the ancient Fathers, the human nature or character of the Church is here delineated, while in chapters four and five her divine nature and prerogatives were depicted.

    The twelve stars represent the twelve apostles; or they may be God’s mystical number symbolizing the Christian nations, that as a contrast to the ten crowned horns of the beast, shall be the glory of the Church when the days of Antichrist approach.

    The moon under her feet has ever been understood to symbolize the unchanging and unchangeable character of the Church.


    v. 2: "And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered."
    Quote from: Fr. Kramer, p. 278
    In that travail, she gives birth to some definite “per­son” who is to RULE the Church with a rod of iron (verse 5). It then points to a conflict waged within the Church to elect one who was to “rule all nations” in the manner clearly stated. In accord with the text this is unmistakably a PAPAL ELECTION, for only Christ and His Vicar have the divine right to rule ALL NATIONS. Furthermore, the Church does not travail in anguish at EVERY papal election which can be held without trouble or danger. But at this time the great powers may take a menacing attitude to hinder the election of the logical and expected candidate by threats of a general apostasy, assassination or imprisonment of this candidate if elected. This would suppose an extremely hostile mind in the governments of Europe towards the Church and would cause intense anguish to the Church, because an extended interregnum in the papacy is always disastrous and more so in a time of universal persecution. If Satan would contrive to hinder a papal election, the Church would suffer great travail.


    v. 3: "And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems:"
    Quote from: Fr. Kramer, pg. 279
    This red dragon it is that brings the Church into great distress at that time.

    No fiercer enemy of God and man has appeared in Christian times than Communism, and strange to say, RED is its emblematic color. Communism may by that time have gained control of the governments of Europe, It would then erect almost insurmountable difficulties for the holding of a conclave to elect a pope.

    Satan knows how exten­sively an interregnum in the papacy would favor his success in recovering his ancient lordship over the world. (See 2 Thess II. 7 ["For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way."]).
    Card. Manning's 1862 argument for why the Antichrist will be within the Catholic Church is simple:
    Quote from: Card. Manning
    We have here [2 Thessalonians 2:3-11] a prophecy … of a [spiritual*] revolt, which shall precede the second coming of our Lord … The authority, then, from which the revolt is to take place is that of the kingdom of God on earth, prophesied by Daniel [cf. Daniel 2] as the kingdom which the God of heaven should set up … in other words, the one and universal Church, founded by our Divine Lord, and spread by His Apostles throughout the world. In this one only kingdom was deposited the true and supernatural pure theism, or knowledge of God, and the true and only faith of God incarnate, with the doctrines and laws of grace. This, then, is the authority from which the revolt is to be made, be that revolt what it may.
    [*"St. Jerome, with some others, interprets this revolt to be the rebellion of the nations or provinces against the Roman Empire. … They have revolted, and no manifestation has appeared." Thus, the revolt is spiritual, not temporal.]
    {Lect. 1 of Temporal Power of the Vicar of Christ's 2nd part (4 lectures), "The Perpetual Conflict of the Vicar of Christ", pp. 81-173}

    v. 4: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son."
    Quote from: Fr. Kramer, p. 284
    Some eminent cardinal may be particularly outstanding in his efforts to stem the tide of demoralization of bishops and priests. Satan will know, and the world-powers will know, that he is the likely choice for the papacy, and that if elected, he will convoke a general council and exercise his supreme jurisdiction to inaugurate measures of reform. Satan knows that his own hopes of a rich harvest of souls will then be dashed to the ground.  Hence he must avert the election or have the pope αssαssιnαtҽd when elected. The judgment is about to begin “at the house of God” (1 Peter IV. 17). The influence of the dragon will every­ where aim to subject the Church to the state. This persecution is thus a political subjugation, and one third of the bishops and priests will be ripe for apostasy. Satan’s intention is to subject the newly-elected pope also to the purposes of the World-powers or to plot his death. He may contrive an assurance of safety and immunity from harm for the cardinals to convene for the election the more easily to take the pope-elect prisoner. The dragon will want to intimidate the new pope into non-interference—to let affairs run and develop as heretofore. In that way would he “devour the son”, absorb the papacy and alone direct and rule the world.
    "Subject[ing] the Church to the state" is exactly what Dignatitis Humanæ and Vatican II ecuмenism did, too.

    v. 5: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne."
    Quote from: Fr. Kramer, p. 285-6
    A general council may decree the reforms, but the pope must enforce them. These decrees will be the “seven thunders” mentioned in chapter ten.

    The clause, “that he might devour her son”, does not necessarily mean assassination. The dragon is a symbolic form of the evil world-powers, who will resent the existence of a spiritual empire among them and through them and independent of them in its essential functions and will attempt to subject this empire to their will and service. They will try to make the Church a “state church” everywhere. This is possible only if they can subject the pope to their wills and compel him to teach and rule as they direct. That would be literally devouring the papacy.  Since they are defeated in this, they have the pope αssαssιnαtҽd and “he is taken up to God and to His throne”, just as Christ by His death “was taken away from distress” (Is. LIII. 8).

    this “son” will hardly have time to purify the Church, before he is persecuted, imprisoned and martyred. He is therefore surely not Christ.

    This pope will be given the power to rule over the destiny of the Church immediately from Heaven. He carries out the will of God and loses his life in consequence; and immediately as part of his reward, he receives in Heaven patronage over the Church on earth.
    Could this "man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod" be Card. Siri? If so, it's comforting that "he receives in Heaven patronage over the Church on earth."

    The following verses show the triumph of St. Michael, a newly elected Pope, and cardinals who uphold and enforce the "Seven Thunders" of the orthodox council.

    Keep reading. It's fascinating. And it's public revelation.
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    Offline Memento

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #56 on: October 30, 2013, 06:05:04 AM »
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  • Your summation/compilation of Fr. Kramer's commentary on Apocalypse Ch.12 in relation to the crisis and long sedevacante is very helpful Geremia.

    Offline IllyricumSacrum

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #57 on: October 30, 2013, 08:20:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: IllyricuмSacrum
    "After me, the deluge." - Pius XII
    Wow, when and where did he say that?


    I heard and read it from several sources. It was towards the end of his earthly life.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Offline Geremia

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    The election of Cardinal Siri in 1958
    « Reply #59 on: October 30, 2013, 10:19:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Memento
    Your summation/compilation of Fr. Kramer's commentary on Apocalypse Ch.12 in relation to the crisis and long sedevacante is very helpful Geremia.
    I posted it on some other forums and got quite a lot of heat for asking "Could this 'man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod' be Card. Siri?" If it is true that "Pope Siri" accepted the Vatican II anti-popes, then he would ipso facto cease being pope by being a public heretic for acknowledging anti-popes as true popes. Did he undoubtedly publicly acknowledge them as true popes?
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