Author Topic: Was the papacy or non-papacy of John Paul 2 is was a matter of opinion (Read 3097 times)

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2015, 02:13:47 PM »

Maybe I should explain myself a little better. Prior to V2 you really could say that "I don't decide". You were born in a parish. If you wanted to be Catholic you just went to the nearest parish (or the parish which had jurisdiction over your domicile aka home/house/apartment). You didn't choose the priest, the bishop of your diocese did. You obeyed your parents, your priest/confessor, your bishop, and the Pope. There was no confusion. It wasn't always that way. There was the Western Schism where there was the situation in some places where your diocese had two bishops, one for each Pope. In some cases maybe there were three. How do you decide? Who is the true representative of the Church? There were saints who landed on opposite sides. We have a similar situation today. I have CMRI, SSPX, independent, Resistance, and NO diocese all claiming to be the true representatives of the Catholic Church in my diocese. How do I decide? Clearly I have a choice to make. I can't say that "I don't decide" because that is not an option. I desire to follow the true representatives of the Catholic Church but I must decide who they are. God has permitted this situation. I honestly think I will be judged more on how much I practiced the virtues more than on which choice I make on the matter of who is the Pope. Nevertheless, I would be remiss if I didn't put some effort into understanding the issues. I have put some effort into it, maybe not as much as I could have, and I have concluded that the SV arguments are not only the most convincing but also the safest path to take. If I see later that a thoroughly Catholic bishop with indubitable orders is elected to the papacy, I will happily abandon the SV position. That's how it works in every SV situation (all 260?).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2015, 03:07:43 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

I desire to follow the true representatives of the Catholic Church but I must decide who they are. God has permitted this situation. I honestly think I will be judged more on how much I practiced the virtues more than on which choice I make on the matter of who is the Pope.

This ^^^

If you formally intend to submit to the Church authorities, then you do so ... even if materially mistaken about their identity. So St. Vincent was no less holy for having chosen incorrectly.

But IMO it's very important not to become obsessed with the issue, for that can inspire bitter zeal and actually distract us from the practice of the virtues. I ask God's enlightenment and think about the matter from time to time, but I refuse to be consumed by it. IMO it's OK, and in many ways preferrable, to just say, I don't know and am just doing the best I can and will leave it up to the Church to resolve this issue. How does it benefit the Church or our souls to go around ranting and raving about Bergoglio? It harms us and could harm the cause of truth (if in fact he's not the pope) due to how people perceive it. And if we've decided that he's not the pope, what exactly are we to do about it? It's not like there's a credible alternate claimant to whom we could adhere. Yes, if I came to the conclusion that Francis is the legitimate pope, I would indeed submit to him. But I'm in serious doubt.

JPaul · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2015, 10:06:20 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Clemens Maria
Ladislaus said: "What's at issue is whether and to what extent individual Catholics (vs. the Church as a whole) can decide even for themselves whether or not someone is the Pope."

How do you decide who is the Pope?

That's precisely the point. I don't decide. Only the Church decides.

How do you decide where the Church is?

According to Bishop Wlliamson, you look for the half rotten fruit.

songbird · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2015, 06:08:04 PM »

Instead of SV, see it this way: We can not follow marxists. When war broke out in 1940's, russia goes after Hitler. Russia takes over and replaces Bishops and priests with those who are priest/marxist and Bishop/marxist. Pope XII and the Pope before states: whoever (clergy) who does this, is excommunicated. And anyone who accepts them, follows them are also excommunicated.

I decided, that the pope is outwardly not catholic. He must be catholic when elected. He follows Marxism and therefore I obey Pope XII and any Pope who says: do not follow or accept the Marxists.