Author Topic: the diamond bros  (Read 6536 times)

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Offline TKGS

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the diamond bros
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2015, 10:38:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    The Dimonds do some things right but their very "us-vs.-them" attitude can be kind of jarring. If they weren't both Feeneyite and dogmatic sedevacantist, they'd be brilliant.


    No, if they weren't DOGMATIC "Feeneyite" and dogmatic sedevacantist, they'd be brilliant.  They do struggle with their syllogisms and their logic (an inability to make appropriate distinctions when warranted) and their grasp of Latin, due to lack of formal theological training, but they make a great contribution in a lot of ways.


    This is probably the best characterization of the Dimond Brothers so far.  Good analysis, Ladislaus.

    I've read the final court decision on the lawsuit--the Dimond Brothers posted it to the internet.  Not sure if it's still available.  The court found that the Dimond Brothers fully disclosed to the postulate their status, their doctrine, etc., etc., etc.  They did not hide anything from the individual nor did they make untrue claims about themselves.  They did not require the individual to give them anything other than a customary dowry but the man determined to donate a great deal of money which he wanted back.  It is this great deal of money, I think, that has enabled them to provide many of their materials at or below the cost of production.

    I really do wish they would eliminate their dogmatism on Feeneyism and sedevacantism as well as brush up on logic.  They could be a great resource.  While they do open doors to tradition, I think they slam even more doors shut.

    Offline Malleus

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    « Reply #16 on: February 06, 2015, 12:11:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    They also claimed that JPII was the Antichrist and Benedict was the False Prophet... then Bergoglio happened. lol.


    Make that claim.

    They still say he is the antichrist!


    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #17 on: February 06, 2015, 01:26:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    Quote from: Croixalist
    They also claimed that JPII was the Antichrist and Benedict was the False Prophet... then Bergoglio happened. lol.


    Make that claim.

    They still say he is the antichrist!


    Hah, well okay then! The Final Antichrist has been dead of natural causes for 10 years and Christ hasn't come back. Does that sound right to you?

    Quote from: Bellator Dei

    Of course, you are entitled to your opinion.  I was merely pointing out that just because there was a lawsuit, it doesn't necessarily qualify as reason to discredit them.


    The lawsuit wasn't my only reason to discredit them. It's there to give you an idea of who they like to recruit and how they conduct their affairs. They do have a proven ability to separate fools from their money.

    Quote
    Right....   But when confronted about providing proof, you answer like most who cannot provide an adequate answer, such as:
     
    Quote from: Croixalist
    That won't be necessary.


    That was the introductory sentence to a paragraph where I did provide an argument. You neglected to address those points... unless you thought I needed to post it on their website first or something.

    Quote from: Croixalist
    I remember Salza saying that they were ducking him.


    That was in response to why there aren't any debates with these people. There's other reasons outside of being too scared. Though they do enjoy a certain amount of notoriety, they aren't authoritative on anything. Their habit of declaring all Catholics who don't agree with them as heretics couldn't help matters. They also could be using unreasonable demands to mask an unwillingness to debate. If you go by William Albrecht, he said they insisted on exclusive rights to the debate on YT. Now, I don't agree with William on all things, but he did provide screenshots of the conversation. Who knows, their rep might have been shot on that alone.

    Quote
    Doubtful, but certainly within the realm of possibilities.  The point, however, is that if you're going to accuse them of being frauds, debate them in a public setting and prove it.  Saying that they're frauds on an internet forum doesn't do your accusation any justice.

    I'm not trying to hold you to anything here on the forum, but if you believe they are truly frauds, then expose them in a debate setting so we can all have proof.


    There's plenty of proof to be had in the way of unsubstantiated claims. "Most" Holy Family Monastery is a spinoff of a spinoff who neglected to actually become a monk. If they have a stronger tie than Joseph Natale, I haven't heard of it. They're self-declared Benedictine monks until someone can prove otherwise.

    Their Feeneyism is another proof that they are in error, but I think I know the audience I'm speaking to. If Feeney couldn't be bothered with Pius XII, why should I bother with his spiritual successors?

    I'll debate anyone on this forum and if the Dimonds want to sign up and go to town, they're welcome to. Until then, I'm going to continue to follow my own advice on the subject. However, if you disagree with what I'm saying, feel free to provide your own reasons instead of inventing an imaginary arbiter of internet argumentation.

    Ultimately, I would put as much distance as possible between myself and any home-aloner who goes out of their way to declare virtually all Catholics, trad or not, as heretics.

    That's just me though!
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Bellator Dei

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    the diamond bros
    « Reply #18 on: February 06, 2015, 01:46:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    I'll debate anyone on this forum
     

    I look forward to seeing you on the threads...

    Quote from: Croixalist
    I'm going to continue to follow my own advice


    Look Mate, I'm no apologetic for the Dimonds, but accusations demand proof.  

    Of course, follow your own advice, it matters not to me.  I'm not here to convince you of following the Dimonds....



    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.

    Offline Malleus

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    « Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 01:49:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    Hah, well okay then! The Final Antichrist has been dead of natural causes for 10 years and Christ hasn't come back. Does that sound right to you?


    Of course not! These guys are crazy.

    I suppose it's beyond them to say "Hey, we were wrong about this, so we're sorry and we take it back okay?"


    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #20 on: February 06, 2015, 05:00:48 PM »
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  • I got news for croixalist--- any paperwork claiming that Fr Feeney was either called to Rome or ex-communicated for not complying is a fraud.  :thinking:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #21 on: February 07, 2015, 05:51:29 AM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: Croixalist
    I'll debate anyone on this forum
     

    I look forward to seeing you on the threads...

    Quote from: Croixalist
    I'm going to continue to follow my own advice


    Look Mate, I'm no apologetic for the Dimonds, but accusations demand proof.  

    Of course, follow your own advice, it matters not to me.  I'm not here to convince you of following the Dimonds....



    The difference here is that my proof isn't good enough for you. That's fine, I'm not an authority. The only thing that will truly settle this for good, is for a Holy Pope to start making pronouncements against this sort of thing. We're in the wild west right now and everyone has a revolver and we all shoot from the hip. Our ammo is as soft as clay (or a virtual down-thumb) so no one falls down.

    The real danger is thinking we're safe and secure against the myriads of deceptions that can arise in our traditional movement. There aren't many people who can handle snakes without being bitten. The same goes for trad Catholics and self-styled breakaway leaders. I'm not saying you can't discern truth from fiction, but you ought to be humble and wary going into it or you're likely to get tripped up somewhere.

    With the Dimonds, we've already seen the fruit of failed prophecy. They are known only for their what they fight against, not for their charity, not for their spiritual life, not for what they pray for.  For what they are, the lack of formal training, the lack of bonifides, and the lack of ecclesiastical office, they do far more damage than they could ever fix themselves. Anyone who does credit them with "conversion" is going to have quite a task removing all the parasites from their thought process.

    Someone with more training could delve deeper through those murky waters. If you think you got what it takes, great, but it seems like you have fallen into their cult following. Ladislaus sounds like he's got stable footing here, though I am much less apt to give them any slack because I know my limitations.

    So my bullet is a warning shot. If it stings, you might consider moving your position. Hopefully, it went over your head.

    Quote from: Malleus
    Of course not! These guys are crazy.


    Someone I can agree with!  :cheers:

    And roscoe, is there something I missed in Acta Apostolicae Sedis?

    Quote
    "Since Father Leonard Feeney remained in Boston (St. Benedict Center) and since he has been suspended from performing his priestly duties for a long time because of his grave disobedience to the Authority of the Church, in no way moved by repeated warnings and threats of incurring excommunication ipso facto, and has still failed to submit, the most Eminent and Reverend Fathers, charged with the responsibility of safeguarding faith and morals, during a plenary session held on February 4, 1953, have declared him excommunicated with all the effects that this has in law.
    "On Thursday, February 12, 1953, Our Most Holy Father Pius XII, Pope by Divine Providence, has approved and confirmed the decree of these Most Eminent Fathers, and ordered that this be made a matter of public record.
    "Given in Rome in the general quarters of the Holy Office, February 13, 1953. Marius Crovini, notary."


    Or do you believe Feeney had the authority to place conditions on his appearance in Rome? You think Crovini made it up on his own?
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #22 on: February 07, 2015, 07:34:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus
    I suppose it's beyond them to say "Hey, we were wrong about this, so we're sorry and we take it back okay?"


    The day this happens is the day I will take a fresh look at them.  Based on their history, I don't foresee this every happening.


    Offline Centroamerica

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    « Reply #23 on: February 07, 2015, 08:51:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Bellator Dei
    Quote from: TKGS
    Are they "real" brothers?


    From what I understand, they took their vows before a validly ordained Priest.


    Hardly!

    Quote from:  Wikipedia source


    History

    Schism House was founded in 1967, in Berlin, New Jersey, by a self-proclaimed Benedictine monk named Joseph Natale (1933-1995), originally as a community for handicapped men. Natale entered the Benedictine Archabbey in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, in 1960 as a lay postulant, but left less than a year later to start his own Holy Family Monastery. According to an archivist of the Saint Vincent Archabbey in Latrobe, Natale left before taking vows; he never actually became a Benedictine monk.[4]

    Throughout the late 1960s and early 1970s, Natale denounced the Second Vatican Council and the New Mass, and by the mid-1970s the community had separated from the Vatican. By mid-1980s, there were ten monks in it, but by 1994 the number declined to three. Shortly after a conference in 1994, John Vennari left to work for Fr. Nicholas Gruner.

    Natale died in 1995, whereupon Michael Dimond (born Frederick Dimond[5]), who joined in 1992 at the age of 19 after converting to Catholism four years earlier,[6] was elected the Superior. Soon after, he relocated to Granger, New York (close to Fillmore, New York), where Natale owned more than 90 acres (36 ha) of donated land.[7]

    Dimond supported Gerry Matatics when he held similar beliefs.[8]

    Michael and Peter Dimond's position condemning the Vatican's promotion of Natural Family Planning (a Fertility awareness method for married couples to regulate conception, pregnancy, and birth) was noted in the 2010 book Twentieth-Century Global Christianity by Fortress Press, as "an admittedly rare example of contemporary opposition".[9]

    Schism House airs advertisements on shortwave radio broadcasts of The Alex Jones Show.

    Beginning in late 2012, an audio recording of Peter Dimond responding to an individual struggling with sex addiction set to the image of a macaque became a fad on the site YTMND under the name "impurity". A number of similar "impurity" sites have since been created, incorporating clips from the original recording along with recordings of Alex Jones and other content relating to traditionalist Catholicism, sexual promiscuity, and the 9/11 truth movement.

    Sacraments

    As none of their members were ordained into the priesthood, and as they believe that the New Mass is invalid and that the Tridentine Mass (promoted by Benedict XVI) is compromised by the 1962 Missal changes made by John XXIII, they receive the sacraments from a Byzantine rite Catholic Church that is in communion with the Vatican, in Rochester, New York. During these occasions they wear layman's clothes in lieu of their Benedictine habits. Peter Dimond wrote: "In receiving the sacraments from certain Byzantine priests for over the last decade – i.e. from priests who are not notorious or imposing about their heresies – I've received what I consider to be tremendous spiritual graces."[10][11]



    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Holy_Family_Monastery

    I find that there are some very interesting facts on the Wikipedia. Most Of these details raise a serious eye of suspicion. For instance, four years after converting from atheist parents to traditional Catholicism at the mere age of 19 Michael Dimond was elected superior of the "Benedictine" monastery. They also seem to support the pro-Zionist Jew lover Alex Jones. I mean, maybe some of the details are only coincidence, but they lead me to believe that these highly divisive individuals are actually plants to disrupt the Traditionalist movement. But then when you watch some of their videos, for instance a recent one proving the Papacy, this is hard to believe. As someone else said, they are certainly a mixed bag.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some cerem

    Offline Centroamerica

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    the diamond bros
    « Reply #24 on: February 07, 2015, 08:54:29 AM »
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  • Schism House!

    Hats off to the moderator on that one! :applause:
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some cerem

    Offline Croixalist

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    the diamond bros
    « Reply #25 on: February 07, 2015, 09:38:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica


    Schism House!

    Hats off to the moderator on that one! :applause:


    :roll-laugh2: :roll-laugh2: :roll-laugh2:

    Sneaky!
    Fortuna finem habet.


    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #26 on: February 07, 2015, 05:22:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    I got news for croixalist--- any paperwork claiming that Fr Feeney was either called to Rome or ex-communicated for not complying is a fraud.  :thinking:


     :fryingpan:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Croixalist

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    the diamond bros
    « Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 07:05:36 AM »
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  • I don't count frying-pan gif as a valid source of information.

    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 07:10:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    I don't count frying-pan gif as a valid source of information.



    It's about as good as anything which comes from the Cushingites.

    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 12:56:57 PM »
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  • Well if I could justify his argument without saving it, I'd take Feeney seriously. Cushing was right for the wrong reasons in regards to disciplining Feeney, who was wrong for the right reasons... though Cushing was wrong for the wrong reasons on his own personal take, which became mainstream during VII anyway. Nostra Aetate will get it's turn to be shot down too (along with the rest of VII) once the ship rights itself.

    I don't think you automatically have to be in Cushing's corner in order to object to Feeneyism, if that was what you were implying. Feeney had the right instinct to fight against what would later emerge as a rejection of EENS, he just painted himself into a corner during the attempt and refused to start over. It's that sort of pride that the Dimonds have fallen prey to.
    Fortuna finem habet.

     

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