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Offline SeanJohnson

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The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
« on: April 22, 2014, 08:30:57 AM »
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  • 1st Argument by Jimmy Akin:
    According to many current sedevacantists, Pius XII was the last valid pope. He died in 1958, which was 53 years ago.

    Here is where the argument gets interesting: In order to be pope, under current canon law, one must be elected by the college of cardinals. In order to be a member of the college of cardinals, one must be appointed by the pope. In order for the pope to appoint you, he must be alive.

    If the last valid pope died in 1958, that would seem to mean that no cardinals have been validly appointed since then.  How many cardinals are alive today who were appointed before 1958?

    None.

    The longest-serving cardinal at present is Eugenio Sales, who wasn’t appointed until 1969. If his elevation to the cardinalate was invalid, and so were all subsequent elevations due to a lack of valid popes, then it would appear that the college of cardinals now has no members. With no valid members, it would seem impossible for there to be another validly elected pope.

    Ever.

    That would be odd.

    It would certainly seem to be contrary to the will of Christ who, in the words of Vatican I, willed “that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church.” If Christ really wills that there be an ongoing series of successors then one would think he would keep the Church from getting into a position where it is impossible to elect any more successors.

    So do we have a good argument here, from Vatican I, after all? An argument that deals a death-blow to a major current form of sedevacantism?

    2nd Argument (Quoted by Nishant):

    Cardinal Billot says: "God may allow that a vacancy of the Apostolic See last for a while. He may also permit that some doubt be risen about the legitimacy of such or such election. However, God will never allow the whole Church to recognize as Pontiff someone who is not really and lawfully.  Thus, as long as a pope is accepted by the Church, and united with her like the head is united to the body, one can no longer raise any doubt about a possible defective election."


    3rd Argument of Pope Benedict XIV (Quoted by Nishant):

    it suffices Us to be able to state that a commemoration of the supreme pontiff and prayers offered for him during the sacrifice of the Mass is considered, and really is, an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity. This was rightly noticed by Christianus Lupus in his work on the Councils: "This commemoration is the chief and most glorious form of communion" (tome 4, p. 422, Brussels edition).

    This view is not merely approved by the authority of Ivo of Flaviniaca who writes: "Whosoever does not pronounce the name of the Apostolic one in the canon for whatever reason should realize that he is separated from the communion of the whole world" (Chronicle, p. 228); or by the authority of the famous Alcuin: "It is generally agreed that those who do not for any reason recall the memory of the Apostolic pontiff in the course of the sacred mysteries according to custom are, as the blessed Pelagius teaches, separated from the communion of the entire world" (de Divinis Officiis, bk. 1, chap.



    Commentary:

    1) The first two arguments establish the impossibility of sedevacantism.

    2) The 3rd argument establishes the schismatic nature of the sedevacantist position.

    3) All three in combination establish that all the various sedevacantist theories are total hallucinations.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 08:41:38 AM »
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  • As I have said to Nishant, I think it is very much debatable that the whole Church recognizes these men as popes.

    One cannot use the Novus Ordo to measure such a thing.  So the "recognition" of the majority of the Novus Ordo prelates does not extend to verify what Billot is teaching, since they themselves don't have the faith; it would be tantamount to arguing that since the AP calls them popes, they must be.

    Similarly, the vast majority of Novus Ordo Catholics cannot be used as this gauge, since they themselves dissent even from the teaching of the N.O. Church on such things like birth control and the Real Presence-- the former still "officially" condemned by the Novus Ordo Church, the former still "officially" taught; but the Novus Ordo faithful as an overwhelming majority accept and reject these respectively.

    Traditional Catholics cannot be said to recognize these men when they reject everything they teach.  When theologians speak of recognition they aren't talking about putting his picture in the vestibule or inserting his name in the canon only, rather these are things which follow logically from peacefully accepting the authority of the pope in question.  Traditional Catholics reject that authority, not just a little bit, but completely.  There is certainly no peaceful acceptance on our end toward these men.  And there hasn't ever been.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 08:45:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    As I have said to Nishant, I think it is very much debatable that the whole Church recognizes these men as popes.

    One cannot use the Novus Ordo to measure such a thing.  So the "recognition" of the majority of the Novus Ordo prelates does not extend to verify what Billot is teaching, since they themselves don't have the faith; it would be tantamount to arguing that since the AP calls them popes, they must be.

    Similarly, the vast majority of Novus Ordo Catholics cannot be used as this gauge, since they themselves dissent even from the teaching of the N.O. Church on such things like birth control and the Real Presence-- the former still "officially" condemned by the Novus Ordo Church, the former still "officially" taught; but the Novus Ordo faithful as an overwhelming majority accept and reject these respectively.

    Traditional Catholics cannot be said to recognize these men when they reject everything they teach.  When theologians speak of recognition they aren't talking about putting his picture in the vestibule or inserting his name in the canon only, rather these are things which follow logically from peacefully accepting the authority of the pope in question.  Traditional Catholics reject that authority, not just a little bit, but completely.  There is certainly no peaceful acceptance on our end toward these men.  And there hasn't ever been.


    I can't think of a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction who denies the legitimacy of this pontificate.

    And if you are not willing to recognize their recognition, you have effectively eliminated the worldwide heirarchy.

    In that case, it is not evident to me how to avoid the charge of violating indefectibility and schism.

    And of course, Jimmy Akin's argument is unassailable.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 08:52:25 AM »
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  • ...meaning that, not only have you wiped out the worldwide heirarchy, leaving none remaining with ordinary jurisdiction, but you have also pre-empted the means of restoring one.

    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Nishant

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #4 on: April 22, 2014, 08:53:57 AM »
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  • Great post, Sean.

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    I can't think of a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction who denies the legitimacy of this pontificate.


    Exactly. There is none such. Then clearly the whole ecclesia docens recognizes Pope Francis as Pontiff and professes communion with him.

    And Mith seems to leave out that Pope Benedict XIV clearly described for us that "una cum" is really "an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter." So how can it be claimed, on the contrary, that is not recognition of the Pope?

    Cardinal Billot, and also Fr. Hunter cited on the other thread, explains that this cannot be - if Pope Francis was outside the Church, then so would the whole ecclesia docens also be, for they profess communion with him, which however is impossible.

    Therefore, the reverse must be true, since all of them profess communion with him, he must be inside the Church. And therefore, their acceptance of him is an infallible sign and effect of the validity of his election.

    As Fr. Hunter says, in the practical order, it suffices us to know that "if the bishops agree in recognizing a man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of bishops would be separated from their head, and the divine constitution of the Church would be ruined".
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 08:56:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    As I have said to Nishant, I think it is very much debatable that the whole Church recognizes these men as popes.

    One cannot use the Novus Ordo to measure such a thing.  So the "recognition" of the majority of the Novus Ordo prelates does not extend to verify what Billot is teaching, since they themselves don't have the faith; it would be tantamount to arguing that since the AP calls them popes, they must be.

    Similarly, the vast majority of Novus Ordo Catholics cannot be used as this gauge, since they themselves dissent even from the teaching of the N.O. Church on such things like birth control and the Real Presence-- the former still "officially" condemned by the Novus Ordo Church, the former still "officially" taught; but the Novus Ordo faithful as an overwhelming majority accept and reject these respectively.

    Traditional Catholics cannot be said to recognize these men when they reject everything they teach.  When theologians speak of recognition they aren't talking about putting his picture in the vestibule or inserting his name in the canon only, rather these are things which follow logically from peacefully accepting the authority of the pope in question.  Traditional Catholics reject that authority, not just a little bit, but completely.  There is certainly no peaceful acceptance on our end toward these men.  And there hasn't ever been.


    I can't think of a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction who denies the legitimacy of this pontificate.


    Who are you using as a measure?  Most of the Novus Ordo bishops aren't Catholics to begin with, and as such do not compose the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and are not a reliable rule to determine this doctrine of universal acceptance.

    Whatever non-heretic (ergo, presumably Catholic) prelates are left can hardly constitute a moral unanimity, much less an absolute one.



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    Offline TKGS

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 09:07:59 AM »
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  • Why so much interest in trying to defeat sedevacantism, Sean, if it's so useless and impossible an idea?

    Offline Charlemagne

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 09:16:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    I can't think of a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction who denies the legitimacy of this pontificate.


    Can you name "a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction" who holds and professes publicly the Catholic Faith wholly and entirely?
    "Kindness is for fools! They [modernists] want to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses, but they ought to be beaten with fists. In a duel, you don't count or measure the blows, you strike as you can. War is not made with charity. It is a struggle, a duel." -- Pope St. Pius X


    Offline Nishant

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 09:24:45 AM »
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  • Mith, even under your view, there is no bishop with ordinary jurisdiction (who comprise the ecclesia docens) who doesn't pray in communion with Pope Francis. I take it you admit this? Please tell us, if you believe otherwise, which bishops do not.

    Secondly, please tell us, what is the actual profession that recognizes a man as Pontiff, if it is not the act of praying for him as Pope? Please cite some authority for the latter. From Pope Benedict XIV's statement, it seems fairly evident that not only is this act an express profession of such a recognition, but it is also "the chief and most glorious form of communion".
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Ferdinand

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 10:40:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    As I have said to Nishant, I think it is very much debatable that the whole Church recognizes these men as popes.

    One cannot use the Novus Ordo to measure such a thing.  So the "recognition" of the majority of the Novus Ordo prelates does not extend to verify what Billot is teaching, since they themselves don't have the faith; it would be tantamount to arguing that since the AP calls them popes, they must be.

    Similarly, the vast majority of Novus Ordo Catholics cannot be used as this gauge, since they themselves dissent even from the teaching of the N.O. Church on such things like birth control and the Real Presence-- the former still "officially" condemned by the Novus Ordo Church, the former still "officially" taught; but the Novus Ordo faithful as an overwhelming majority accept and reject these respectively.

    Traditional Catholics cannot be said to recognize these men when they reject everything they teach.  When theologians speak of recognition they aren't talking about putting his picture in the vestibule or inserting his name in the canon only, rather these are things which follow logically from peacefully accepting the authority of the pope in question.  Traditional Catholics reject that authority, not just a little bit, but completely.  There is certainly no peaceful acceptance on our end toward these men.  And there hasn't ever been.


    ...I can't think of a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction who denies the legitimacy of this pontificate.


    Sean, please point out for us a single bishop (by name) with ordinary jurisdiction! We'll review your candidate if you can come up with one.

    Have you ever stopped and thought for a moment that this just might be the "great apostasy"?

    Offline Ferdinand

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #10 on: April 22, 2014, 10:43:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    ...if "Pope" Francis was outside the Church, then so would the whole ecclesia docens also be, for they profess communion with him...


    Agreed, the apostates (each and every one of them) are outside the Church.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #11 on: April 22, 2014, 10:58:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    I can't think of a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction who denies the legitimacy of this pontificate.


    Please name all the bishops you can think of who are not public heretics.  You can include those with or without ordinary jurisdiction.  I will be surprised if you can name a single bishop who has ordinary jurisdiction who has not also publicly contradicted the infallible teachings of the Church.

    Quote from: SeanJohnson
    And if you are not willing to recognize their recognition, you have effectively eliminated the worldwide heirarchy.


    I will not recognize public heretics.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #12 on: April 22, 2014, 11:22:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson
    1st Argument by Jimmy Akin:
    According to many current sedevacantists, Pius XII was the last valid pope. He died in 1958, which was 53 years ago.

    Here is where the argument gets interesting: In order to be pope, under current canon law, one must be elected by the college of cardinals.


    False.  This falsehood should no longer be making the rounds on CI.  Anyone who has been paying attention knows it to be refuted by pre-V2 theologians (e.g. Cardinal Journet).  Canon law requires the Cardinals to elect the pope but it is also an accepted legal principal that when the law is impeding the purpose for which it was created, it has no force.

    So, Sean Johnson, Jimmy Akins' argument is not only assailable, it holds no water whatsoever.  It is a junk argument.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 11:38:01 AM »
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  • If we are going to start throwing around accusations of schism, I think the recognize and resist folks have to answer how they are not in schism.  They claim that they are subjects of the authority of a schismatic and heretical man, but they refuse to obey him whom they believe to be the legitimate reigning pontiff.  Either way you look at it, they are on a trajectory to ruin.  They need to understand that heretics and schismatics are outside the Church and can never have any authority whatsoever and to follow/recognize one is to join him in heresy and schism.  And they need to understand the necessity of obeying the man whom they recognize as the sovereign pontiff.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    The Definitive Trifecta Against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 11:40:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    And Mith seems to leave out that Pope Benedict XIV clearly described for us that "una cum" is really "an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter." So how can it be claimed, on the contrary, that is not recognition of the Pope?


    You obviously do not understand what submission means.  Recognition is worthless if it is not accompanied by submission.  Pope Innocent didn't require recognition, he required submission.  Without it you are damned.

     

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