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Author Topic: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery  (Read 3098 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2019, 01:02:43 PM »
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  • Except you ignore ALL the pope's ideas, opinions, wishes, laws, orders, etc. no matter what they are - and you said you wished the SSPX did the same. So you don't just ignore just the ones that you, in your private judgement(quite Protestant), judge to be heretical - but the whole lot. Ignoring the pope's jurisdiction and authority entirely.
    Well, if you will let me know which of the pope's ideas, opinions, wishes, laws, orders, etc. that I should heed, please let me know now. Because for me, I avoid listening to what he has to say because he speaks heresy, so let me know what I should heed from him that does not violate the supreme rule.

    I have quoted Fr. Wathen as saying the way it is with me: "We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, that is not questionable, that’s just a matter of observing what has been said, and we can judge that matter as easily as we can judge the pronouncements of a protestant minister. I mean, if a protestant minster says something that is contrary to the faith, it’s not crime or anything for us to say, “That’s heresy”. It does not matter who says it, if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy."


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    Furthermore, the Catholic Encyclopedia defines schism as "the rupture of ecclesiastical union and unity". Seeing as the SSPX has irregular status and its priests do not have ministry within the Church, they are not in ecclesiastical union and unity. Their efforts to work with the diocesan authorities, attempts at rectifying that, were in fact condemned by yourself. You literally condemned them for attempting to mend their schism with the Church - all while you condemn others for being "schismatic".
    If you don't already know, although it is the pope and newchurch that are the ones who ruptured ecclesiastical union and unity, Catholics who have remained faithful are not guilty of these crimes - and this truth remains the truth no matter how often the same tired old false accusations you leveled have been repeated over the last +55 years, and will always remain the truth no matter how many more times they'll be repeated in the future.

    I condemn no one, I have stated only facts and quoted a definition of schismatic - none of which you have addressed, or are likely to ever address - presumably because you do not know what you're talking about, and/or you will keep refusing to acknowledge the supreme rule into your thinking in this matter.

    All you do is attempt to attack my person, as if I am in some way responsible for those who believe they have figured out how to refuse to acknowledge a valid Roman Pontiff as the supreme head without being schismatic, or, as if I am the one making them schismatic.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Admin

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #46 on: August 31, 2019, 01:25:42 PM »
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  • #1) I wouldn't use the term "supernatural".  I think it's knowable from reason.  Supernatural, in the strict sense, refers to the inner life of the Holy Trinity which cannot be known with reason.  It is certainly, however, a mystery in the sense that we have not been able to fully grasp what has been doing on.  God has not revealed the precise (albeit very natural) details of what's happened to the Church.  Yeah, I know, I'm being a bit too pedantic here.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    “Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)


    1. Note that he says PREISTS at the beginning of the quote.

    2. Note the date of the quote: 1986, so it pre-dates the so-called "Excommunications", the Episcopal consecrations, and all the Conciliar nonsense that took place around June 30, 1988.

    3. +ABL was much less hopeful for a "fix" for the Conciliar Church post-1988. After 1988, his strategy basically became "keep the Faith, help inform/convert as many others as possible, then wait/sacrifice/pray for God to sort it out."

    4. I doubt +ABL wanted the whole body of Catholic laymen in 2019 to spend their days primarily arguing with each other until they are blue in the face about the exact status of the Pope and how God is going to fix the Crisis in the Church. There just isn't an argument or authority that can be wielded to conquer the others, resulting in a state where the "losing" side is reduced to 100% men of bad will.

    5. The conclusion in #4 is reached by common sense and the past 50 years of history after Vatican II. If there were a One Ring to rule them all, a Master Ring before which all arguments would crumble, the Sedes, the SSPX, the FSSP or someone would have found it by now (it's been 50 years!) and become the Lord of the Rings. That is to say, they would have taken over 99% of Tradition, leaving only a stubborn, bad-willed remnant hanging on in other groups. But here we are, sheep without a shepherd, 50 years later, still scattered, confused and divided.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #47 on: August 31, 2019, 01:27:17 PM »
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  • The Pope question is neither here nor there unless you're a Bishop, cleric or have a special calling. For all of us laymen (which is the majority of CathInfo) we just have to keep the Faith and be Traditional Catholics, completely rejecting Vatican II and its de-facto new religion. Do this, and we have a chance of saving our souls. Do it not, and our souls have a 100X greater chance of losing the Faith and being lost.

    The Pope question is a complete red herring for Traditional Catholics. We have much bigger fish to fry, as demonstrated and discussed in the "Catholics Living in the Modern World" thread about daughters being worldly and boy-crazy. SSPX and other Trad Catholics are losing their sons and daughters to the World and to satan -- but they don't care, as long as they think they have the Pope question figured out! Madness!

    I've pointed out many times that Sedevacantism offers zero practical benefit over and above the immense benefits of the Traditional Movement itself. Now whether it causes any harm seems to be open for debate.

    I personally go so far as to say that the exact nature of the Crisis in the Church is a bona fide supernatural mystery, one that literally can't be known, achieved or grasped by human reason alone, without the aid of Divine Revelation -- and God hasn't revealed it yet! That is to say, if all the best minds and theologians in Tradition got together for a 1-month conference, they wouldn't be able to figure out the Crisis in the Church, unless God joined their little conference.

    This is my perspective, as one who has been in the actual Traditional movement for over 4 decades.

    Unless men can figure out the mind and plans of God "by human reason alone", the Crisis in the Church is a nut that will never be cracked by human power.
    Yes, from Paul's 2nd letter to the Thesselonions 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way
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    Offline Admin

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #48 on: August 31, 2019, 01:28:56 PM »
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  • I think it's a natural mystery.  I think it will be something we will eventually all perfectly understand, unlike (say) the Trinity or the hypostatic union.  Even if it is not revealed to us until after death.  Divine revelation is closed, has been since St. John died.  There's nothing new under the sun.
    Yes, but what do you call a mystery than man can't solve on his own, no matter how many men (or how smart of men) apply themselves to it?
    Understanding the Crisis *today* before it's over, saying how it's going to be solved, and answering *all* the objections with authority -- that is not something any group can do at the present.

    It would take God stepping in and explaining how this and that were done. How papal infallibility, the visibility of the Church, indefectibility of the Church, the Promise to Peter, etc. were all preserved.
    Knowing how and why God allowed the Crisis, and for what purpose, and how it all will end -- would require a one-on-one session with God.
    That's why I add the adjective "supernatural" to the mystery.
    Please show how I'm wrong.

    Maybe there's a better term - "mystery requiring further supernatural revelation from God for a solution"?

    I understand that our human mind COULD grasp it if God explained it to us, so in that respect it's different than the mystery of the Trinity. But there's still a missing piece that all the human beings in the world can't fill.

    All the wise men on the earth couldn't have "figured out" the Trinity by human reason alone.
    All the wise men on the earth today, even with 50 years time, can't "figure out" the Crisis in the Church.
    See my point?

    And I'm talking about a FULL SOLUTION here, with all objections covered and answered, not "figuring it out enough to make a moral judgment". That's easy. We can figure out "enough" to live our daily lives and stay Catholic -- but even that is a bit shaky for a % of the population. Look how many people are throwing their lot in with fake priests, scam artists (Moran), ridiculous cults (Fr. Pfeiffer) in their quest to keep the Faith?

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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #49 on: August 31, 2019, 01:32:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    I doubt +ABL wanted the whole body of Catholic laymen in 2019 to spend their days primarily arguing with each other until they are blue in the face about the exact status of the Pope and how God is going to fix the Crisis in the Church. There just isn't an argument or authority that can be wielded to conquer the others, resulting in a state where the "losing" side is reduced to 100% men of bad will.

    I couldn't agree more!


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #50 on: August 31, 2019, 05:52:40 PM »
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  • The solution to the crisis is in plain sight.  If everyone stepped back for a moment and did a thought experiment, it might make more sense.  What if Our Lord performed another great miracle like the miracle of the sun at Fatima and everyone in the world saw Our Lady say that this Francis fellow is an imposter and not a true pope and that the only true Catholic clergy are those who were ordained in the traditional rite by bishops consecrated in the traditional rite.  Then it should be abundantly clear to every Catholic that the solution is for the existing Catholic clergy to elect a pope.  But instead as it is now everyone is wringing their hands and worrying about who wields legitimate authority in the Church.  The only mystery is why men continue to be so focused on a church (Conciliar) that is obviously not the Catholic Church.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #51 on: August 31, 2019, 06:13:27 PM »
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  • The solution to the crisis is in plain sight.  If everyone stepped back for a moment and did a thought experiment, it might make more sense.  What if Our Lord performed another great miracle like the miracle of the sun at Fatima and everyone in the world saw Our Lady say that this Francis fellow is an imposter and not a true pope and that the only true Catholic clergy are those who were ordained in the traditional rite by bishops consecrated in the traditional rite.  Then it should be abundantly clear to every Catholic that the solution is for the existing Catholic clergy to elect a pope.  But instead as it is now everyone is wringing their hands and worrying about who wields legitimate authority in the Church.  The only mystery is why men continue to be so focused on a church (Conciliar) that is obviously not the Catholic Church.

    You say above that everyone now is wringing their hands and worrying about who wields legitimate authority in the Church. Who is it exactly that's worrying? I don't. Do sedevacantists worry about that?

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #52 on: August 31, 2019, 07:13:35 PM »
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  • You say above that everyone now is wringing their hands and worrying about who wields legitimate authority in the Church. Who is it exactly that's worrying? I don't. Do sedevacantists worry about that?
    I don’t expect most laymen to be worrying about it.  But the clergy certainly should be.  If there is no salvation outside the Church then recognizing and actually obeying the legitimate pastors (above all the pope) of the Catholic Church is absolutely essential to your spiritual well-being.  Unless you are a great saint, our supposed sincerity isn’t anything we should be banking on for our salvation.  I’m sure there are quite a few fssp folks who are sincere but I’m fairly certain they are not all receiving valid sacraments.  So it is important to correctly identify the true Catholic clergy.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #53 on: August 31, 2019, 10:20:20 PM »
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  • What if Our Lord performed another great miracle like the miracle of the sun at Fatima and everyone in the world saw Our Lady say that this Francis fellow is an imposter and not a true pope and that the only true Catholic clergy are those who were ordained in the traditional rite by bishops consecrated in the traditional rite.  Then it should be abundantly clear to every Catholic that the solution is for the existing Catholic clergy to elect a pope.

    If the hypothetical "fixing of the Crisis" ends up vindicating the Sedevacantists, then it proves my point in spades: after all, Sedes are what, less than 1% of conservative or even Traditional Catholics? There is NO WAY that a 99% majority of Traditional Catholics don't care, don't put God first, are of bad will, are stupid, etc.

    It would be easier to believe that Hillary Clinton is actually a saint. We're talking, I'd to question every experience (interaction with reality) that I've had in my 4 decades of life.  Do you know how many thousands of Catholics I've spoken to or read their words, both IRL and online during that time?

    The fact that (in your hypothetical) God had to come down and reveal what the truth was -- a truth that 99% of Trads were overlooking, mind you -- would prove my point in spades.
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    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Preamble to the Coup d'état: The Forced Ouster of Benedict XVI
    « Reply #54 on: September 01, 2019, 12:21:29 AM »
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  • I just can't believe that people don't see that Jorge Bergoglio is an anti-Pope. 
    Why don't you think that other Catholics don't see it?  Maybe we're material/practical SV's, if not formally so or professedly so. 

    But it has no bearing on my responsibility and your responsibility to live the true faith, not a false faith.  In fact, if anything, if he were or is an anti-pope, all the more faithful should we be; all the more should we become sanctified as acts of reparation.

    Traditional Catholic spirituality teaches us that when we see evil being done, we make acts of reparation due to the offense caused to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart.  

    If he's the Antichrist, if he's an antipope, if he has dementia -- any of that is a call to prayer for the protection of the Church and a call to greater sanctity on our parts, not to paralysis "until" we "figure it all out."  

    If a new Pope, or any Pope in the future, turns out to be a Saint, that fact by itself won't make us more holy; it will simply make us more blessed, more joyful about our faith.

    No solving of the puzzle affects our primary calling. We'll still be held to account for our own actions, not his, whether it is resolved soon or never resolved until the Final Judgment.  All of the time and work on our own spirituality in the meantime is our responsibility.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #55 on: September 01, 2019, 10:05:12 AM »
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  • If the hypothetical "fixing of the Crisis" ends up vindicating the Sedevacantists, then it proves my point in spades: after all, Sedes are what, less than 1% of conservative or even Traditional Catholics? There is NO WAY that a 99% majority of Traditional Catholics don't care, don't put God first, are of bad will, are stupid, etc.

    It would be easier to believe that Hillary Clinton is actually a saint. We're talking, I'd to question every experience (interaction with reality) that I've had in my 4 decades of life.  Do you know how many thousands of Catholics I've spoken to or read their words, both IRL and online during that time?

    The fact that (in your hypothetical) God had to come down and reveal what the truth was -- a truth that 99% of Trads were overlooking, mind you -- would prove my point in spades.
    1% seems extremely low. Who are you including in your group of Traditional Catholics?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Admin

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #56 on: September 01, 2019, 11:25:45 AM »
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  • 1% seems extremely low. Who are you including in your group of Traditional Catholics?
    All the groups which CLAIM to be Traditional. Including but not limited to:
    Local Indult communities, FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, SSPX, Resistance, all Trad independent chapels, Pfeifferites, and Sedevacantists.
    I should probably include all the would-be Trads who fled to various Eastern Rite groups to be their chosen lifeboat. They are more Trads than true Eastern Rite Catholics. Since they are only Eastern Rite because of the Crisis in the Church. They are basically using this or that Eastern Rite chapel as their Trad chapel of choice.
    Just the SSPX alone in that list is probably upwards of 80% of the Trad movement. They are massive, the 800lb gorilla of Tradition. I don't like that fact, it doesn't make me happy, but that's the truth so I have to accept it.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #57 on: September 01, 2019, 12:38:23 PM »
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  • If the hypothetical "fixing of the Crisis" ends up vindicating the Sedevacantists, then it proves my point in spades: after all, Sedes are what, less than 1% of conservative or even Traditional Catholics? There is NO WAY that a 99% majority of Traditional Catholics don't care, don't put God first, are of bad will, are stupid, etc.

    It would be easier to believe that Hillary Clinton is actually a saint. We're talking, I'd to question every experience (interaction with reality) that I've had in my 4 decades of life.  Do you know how many thousands of Catholics I've spoken to or read their words, both IRL and online during that time?

    The fact that (in your hypothetical) God had to come down and reveal what the truth was -- a truth that 99% of Trads were overlooking, mind you -- would prove my point in spades.
    Are you serious?  There are 1.1 billion people in the world who call themselves Catholic.  How many of them do you think are traditional?  Let’s forget about the laity because it’s easier to track the clergy.  How many priests are traditional?  How many are SSPX?  How many are sedes?  And how many are Resistance?  Does anyone know?  I’m certain that there are more sede priests than Resistance priests in North America.  So how can you be throwing out statistics?  You more than anyone should be loathe to start looking at statistics.  And I’m pretty sure I have seen you downplay statistics in the past but now all of a sudden you think statistics prove your position is correct?
    If you think that we should include laity in this, just remember that a significant number of sedes go to SSPX and resistance chapels so I don’t think it helps your cause.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #58 on: September 01, 2019, 02:06:36 PM »
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  • All the groups which CLAIM to be Traditional. Including but not limited to:
    Local Indult communities, FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, SSPX, Resistance, all Trad independent chapels, Pfeifferites, and Sedevacantists.
    I should probably include all the would-be Trads who fled to various Eastern Rite groups to be their chosen lifeboat. They are more Trads than true Eastern Rite Catholics. Since they are only Eastern Rite because of the Crisis in the Church. They are basically using this or that Eastern Rite chapel as their Trad chapel of choice.
    Just the SSPX alone in that list is probably upwards of 80% of the Trad movement. They are massive, the 800lb gorilla of Tradition. I don't like that fact, it doesn't make me happy, but that's the truth so I have to accept it.
    I think there are a lot more than 1% that hold the sedevacantist position, if you believe that the SSPX is 80%. I see the figure more like 5%. Remember that there are quite a few people who hold the sede position and assist at SSPX masses.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Cera

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    Re: The Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery
    « Reply #59 on: September 01, 2019, 05:28:00 PM »
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  •   The only mystery is why men continue to be so focused on a church (Conciliar) that is obviously not the Catholic Church.
    Jesus said to Peter "Thou are the rock and upon this rock I found my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."
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