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Author Topic: The Conciliar Church  (Read 810 times)

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Offline Caminus

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The Conciliar Church
« on: Yesterday at 06:02:09 PM »
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    • What is the "Conciliar Church"?  Is it a completely separate entity from the historical Catholic Church or something else?  If it is a completely separate entity then it would be considered a non-Catholic sect strictly speaking and absolutely devoid of divine authority.  If this is your position, wherein can jurisdiction be found today?  Further, if it is a non-Catholic sect, how is it that some obviously Catholic people are "members" of it? 

    If it is something else, then what is it?    

    Or is it even helpful to think in terms of a monolithic false church?
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    Online Freind

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 06:05:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Caminus on Yesterday at 06:02:09 PM
    What is the "Conciliar Church"?  Is it a completely separate entity from the historical Catholic Church or something else?  If it is a completely separate entity then it would be considered a non-Catholic sect strictly speaking and absolutely devoid of divine authority.  If this is your position, wherein can jurisdiction be found today?  Further, if it is a non-Catholic sect, how is it that some obviously Catholic people are "members" of it?

    If it is something else, then what is it?   

    Or is it even helpful to think in terms of a monolithic false church?

    It's imaginary. It's like a plane being hijacked and the hijacker telling the people over the intercom that he is the pilot and everything is going to be alright.
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    Offline Caminus

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 07:06:28 PM »
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    • Disagreement over the nature of the "conciliar church" is part of the reason why many left the SSPX to form a new kind of resistance to said entity.  So they separated over an imaginary non-entity?  The term also figured prominently in the writings of ABL as well as pretty much every traditionalist writer since the so-called Council.  It seems this is a key idea.  
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 07:13:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Caminus on Yesterday at 07:06:28 PM
    So they separated over an imaginary non-entity?  It seems this is a key idea. 

    Good to see you, Caminus.  Please do not waste your time with Freind.  It is pointless, as made crystal clear by his absurd responses here and elsewhere/everywhere.

    Hope you are enjoying a reasonably merry Christmas season.  
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Online Freind

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 07:23:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on Yesterday at 07:13:05 PM
    Good to see you, Caminus.  Please do not waste your time with Freind.  It is pointless, as made crystal clear by his absurd responses here and elsewhere/everywhere.

    Hope you are enjoying a reasonably merry Christmas season. 

    Yea, but what do you have to say specifically about my comment in this thread?
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    Online Freind

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 07:48:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on Yesterday at 07:13:05 PM
    Good to see you, Caminus.  Please do not waste your time with Freind.  It is pointless, as made crystal clear by his absurd responses here and elsewhere/everywhere.

    Hope you are enjoying a reasonably merry Christmas season. 

    I thought about this. Do you know how UNREAL what you just said sounds? You hardly ever responded to my posts, and now, here, you decide to pop up suddenly and give a blanket opinion of my past posts without any substance at all? It's sound like you are hired to oppose me.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 11:11:45 PM »
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    • Unlike the Conciliars, we don't believe that the Conciliar Church has any "ecclesial reality", and nobody is a "member" of it in any sense akin to how we say Catholics are members and of Christ, a theological sense, but in the sense that you might be a member if some, oh, political party or a book club, a natural sense.  It's nothing more than an organization in a natural sense.  There are some who belong to the Conciliar Church only materially, just because they mistakenly believe it to be the Catholic Church, but are still members of the Church due to their Baptism and profession of the True Faith.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 11:15:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Caminus on Yesterday at 07:06:28 PM
    Disagreement over the nature of the "conciliar church" is part of the reason why many left the SSPX to form a new kind of resistance to said entity.  So they separated over an imaginary non-entity?  The term also figured prominently in the writings of ABL as well as pretty much every traditionalist writer since the so-called Council.  It seems this is a key idea. 

    It's a natural organization, and the disagreement is about whether Traditional Catholics should tolerate what it stands for and whether they can co-exist.
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    Offline Caminus

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 12:38:20 AM »
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    • In this scenario who actually possesses ordinary jurisdiction within the Catholic Church?  Can you point to anyone specifically? Or are we in such a state that jurisdiction is only being supplied at the moment?  Is that sufficient to sustain indefectibility?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 05:14:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Caminus on Yesterday at 06:02:09 PM
    What is the "Conciliar Church"?  Is it a completely separate entity from the historical Catholic Church or something else?  If it is a completely separate entity then it would be considered a non-Catholic sect strictly speaking and absolutely devoid of divine authority.  If this is your position, wherein can jurisdiction be found today?  Further, if it is a non-Catholic sect, how is it that some obviously Catholic people are "members" of it?

    If it is something else, then what is it?   

    Or is it even helpful to think in terms of a monolithic false church?
    Good questions, questions that have been asked since V2.... 

    "...The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis of this third part, viz., the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who maintains membership within it can be saved. We say that we speak thus with genuine charity, because true charity seeks to inform one's neighbor what he must do for his salvation, and when he is in danger of losing it..." -  snip from Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend? (pdf attached)
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The Conciliar Church
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 05:20:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Caminus on Today at 12:38:20 AM
    In this scenario who actually possesses ordinary jurisdiction within the Catholic Church?  Can you point to anyone specifically? Or are we in such a state that jurisdiction is only being supplied at the moment?  Is that sufficient to sustain indefectibility?
    In these times I go with the Church supplies jurisdiction. I personally believe we are living the prophesy of Jeremiah, particularly verse 4 re: jurisdiction....

    23:1 "Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord  2 Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.  3 And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied.  4 And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, saith the Lord...... 16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts: Hearken not to the words of the prophets that prophesy to you, and deceive you: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord..."
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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