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Offline DecemRationis

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Tyconius on the Apocalypse
« on: December 27, 2023, 07:22:44 AM »
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    • I believe there's an article on Tyconius in the CE, and there's a lot of material on the internet about him. He was a Donatist who on grounds distinct from whatever form of the Donatist heresy he held to was influential on St. Augustine, the Venerable Bede and other Catholics  regarding his "rules" for interpretation of Scripture and the Amillenial interpretation of the Book of the Apocalypse.

      There's a fascinating article on him on Lifesite from which I am posting excerpts below. I'm sure some will go on to read the application of Tyconius to Benedict XVI and Fatima made by the article and stuff will then fly regarding that in the thread, but the point of the post (and hence the excerpts) is Tyconius's fascinating view of the Apocalypse and end times themes.

      Really incredible stuff to reflect on.

      The article with excerpt (full link below):

      Quote
                                        The final confrontation: Examining the end times through the lens of Fatima and Benedict XVI   

                                          Relying on the eschatological worldview of fourth century theologian Tyconius, Pope Benedict XVI appears to indicate that the Third Secret of                                                             
                                          Fatima  plays a  crucial role in the end times.





      It is no easy task to understand the present crisis of evil within the Church, which at times may seem overwhelming.

      Benedict XVI has indicated that the theology of Tyconius can assist the Church in understanding how to expose, and ultimately defeat, the evil of “false brethren” who lie hidden within her. Tyconius’ insights overlap in various ways with the message of Fatima. If we consider Benedict’s comments about Fatima in light of the Tyconian theology of the end times, we are offered a unique perspective on the nature of the Church and the antichurch during their final confrontation.

      • ‘The bishops do, under the guise of a gift of the church, what advances the will of the devil.’
            – Tyconius, ‘Commentary on the Apocalypse,’ fouth century
      • ‘[T]he Antichrist belongs to the Church, grows in it and with it until the great discessio, which initiates the final revelation.’
            – Joseph Ratzinger, ‘Observations on Tyconius’ Concept of the Church,’ 1956
      • ‘It is not possible for the Church to survive if it passively defers the solution of the conflict that tears apart the ‘two-part body’ to the end of time.’       
            - Giorgio Agamben,‘The Mystery of Evil: Benedict XVI and the End Times,’ 2013[/list]


      'A great theologian’


      During his general audience on Wednesday, April 22, 2009, Pope Benedict XVI made a remarkable reference to an obscure ancient Christian writer from North Africa, Tyconius. Even among erudite scholars and Church history buffs, the name of Tyconius is often unfamiliar. If a student ever comes across a reference to Tyconius when studying the Latin Fathers, it is usually in passing, with hardly a second glance.

      By designating Tyconius that April day as “a great theologian” – a Donatist who lived an ascetical life of prayer in the desert and presumably died separated from the Catholic Church – was Benedict hoping that at least some souls, seeking to understand the perplexing trials of the Church during these times, would wonder why? If no one took much notice immediately, was the Holy Father confident that his allusion to Tyconius would serve as a signpost to be detected and more fully comprehended in the future?

      Addressing the crowd in St. Peter’s Square, Pope Benedict unobtrusively dropped clues about and cues toward Tyconius, seeming to mention him only incidentally while focusing his address on another relatively obscure Latin Church writer, Ambrose Autpert:

      Autpert came into contact with the interpretation of the Apocalypse[ii] bequeathed to us by Tyconius[iii]… In his commentary he [Tyconius] sees the Apocalypse above all as a reflection of the mystery of the Church. Tyconius had reached the conviction that the Church was a bipartite body: on the one hand, he says, she belongs to Christ, but there is another part of the Church that belongs to the devil.[iv]

      Within his catechesis, Benedict XVI imparted several salient indicators of his own understanding of the true nature of the eschatological drama that is currently unfolding within the Church. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that anyone unfamiliar with Tyconius’ theological outlook on the book of the Apocalypse is ultimately incapable of understanding the seemingly inexplicable thought and conduct of Benedict XVI in response to the crisis of the Church in our time.

      For Benedict, Tyconius’ conception of what will happen to the Church in the end times provides an important “missing link” for grasping the unprecedented moment in the economy of salvation at which the Holy Father believes the Church and the world have now arrived, as well as offering insight into his exceptionally enigmatic “resignation.”

      As early as 1956, Joseph Ratzinger was intrigued by the 4th century African theologian when, as a young bourgeoning priest and professor, he crafted and published an essay entitled “Reflections on Tyconius’ Concept of the Church in the ‘Liber Regularum.’”[v] The essay explores what Ratzinger calls the “paradox” of Tyconius: “the fact that a man consciously and willingly places himself outside of any concrete ecclesiastical communion while still wanting to remain a Christian, and believes he belongs to the true Church.”[vi] Thus, by the time he made his remarks at the 2009 audience, Benedict XVI had invested well over half a century of reflection on Tyconius’ perception of the fate of the Church in the era of the Apocalypse (the “end times”).

      One cannot help but surmise that Benedict’s ulterior motive in highlighting this “great theologian” was specifically to invite his listeners to enter Tyconius’ eschatological worldview, through an examination of Tyconius’ primary extant work, “Exposition of the Apocalypse.”[vii]

      ‘Both black and beautiful’ – The false brothers within the Church


      Tyconius’ Exposition, written sometime around A.D. 390,  was the first commentary of its kind on the final book of Sacred Scripture, a commentary that “shaped the Latin reception and interpretation of the Apocalypse for the next eight hundred years.”[viii] Tyconius postulates in the Exposition that “there are two cities in the world, one of God and one of the devil, one originating from the abyss, the other from heaven.”[ix]

      However, Tyconius did not regard the world as neatly or conspicuously segregated into those two obvious parts. Rather, he observes that there is an additional bifurcation: “the people of the devil also are divided into two parts, which fight against only one. Because of this, the church is called a ‘third part,’ and the false brothers another third, and the heathen world a third.”
      • Further evidence of this two-fold composition of the people of the devil is seen when Tyconius designates the city of the devil as Babylon. “Babylon…is evil,” Tyconius writes, “whether in the heathen or in false brothers.”[xi][/font]

        For Tyconius, the city of the devil exists both outside the Church and inside the Church – not only among the pagans but also among impostor Christians.

        Referring to “false brothers,” Tyconius speaks in the biblical sense, following the example of both St. Paul[xii] and St. John.[xiii] Tyconius thus refers to a mysterious presence of evil within salvation history that is seen throughout Sacred Scripture and culminates in the bipartite structure of the Church: she consists of two distinct bodies that co-exist in the same visible institution even though they are diametrically opposed to one another.

        As David Robinson, the author of the introduction to the English translation of Tyconius’ Exposition, notes: “For Tyconius… there are a left and a right part in the body of the Lord. The church is both black and beautiful, good and evil, enemy and beloved.”[xiv] In his own words, Tyconius expresses this belief in a variety of ways: “in the one body there are two parts: one persevering, the other transgressing”;[xv] “the good are mixed with the evil in the church up to the end of time”;[xvi] “the church will not spew out every evil person, but [only] some, for the purpose of showing to the world what the last persecution will be like. But with one mind she tolerates the others. Although spiritually they are outside, nevertheless they seem to be active inside”;[xvii] “there are two buildings in the church, one [built] upon rock, another upon sand”;[xviii] “this is those who seem to be in the church but are [really] outside”;[xix] “the false brothers, who, having rejected Christ, confess him with their mouth but by their actions say: ‘We have no king except Caesar’”;[xx] and, “there is blasphemy not only in the kings of the world, by whom those inside [the Church] are condemned; but it is even in the very ones who are inside.”[xxi]

        Tyconius perceives this bipartite typology writ large from the beginning of the Bible to the end – in Cain and Abel; in the sons of Noah (Shem and Japeth are blessed while Ham is cursed); in Ishmael and Isaac; in Esau and Jacob; in the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

        The pattern is present within the Twelve Apostles, among whom there is a devil (Judas).[xxii] Jesus frequently alludes to it in his preaching: the weeds and the wheat; the net thrown into the sea that collects fish of every kind, the good and the bad; the ten virgins, five of whom were foolish and five wise; the sheep and the goats.

        In the book of the Apocalypse this theological construct is prevalent in the angelic pronouncements made to each of the seven churches, all of which point out the presence of an element within the Church that is unholy.[xxvii]

        The Church’s continual clash with the devil is the central theme of Tyconius’ commentary, yet he is particularly preoccupied with the war waged within the Church.

        Robinson again offers an insight that is striking when considered in the context of the present crisis of the Church: “[Tyconius’] primary concern is the historical and spiritual conflict between the Lord’s body (the church) and the devil’s body, which Tyconius frequently calls the enemy body. The term ‘anti-church’ is a fitting designation for the devil’s body because his body masquerades as the church. For example, Tyconius notes that both the Bride of Christ and the whore of Babylon are adorned with gold, silver, and precious stones. The devil’s body imitates the Lord’s holy body, so that one may be deceived by the similarity of splendor.”[xxviii]

        Tyconius identifies this enemy body that camouflages itself with the outward trappings of the Church using two biblical terms he deems interchangeable – the “mystery of iniquity” and the “abomination of desolation.”[xxx] According to Tyconius, this iniquitous, abominable, adverse entity will be fully revealed only at the time of what Tyconius calls the great discessio, the Latin word used by St. Jerome in his translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 for what St. Paul calls ἀποστασία in Greek: “Ne quis vos seducat ullo modo quoniam nisi venerit discessio primum et revelatus fuerit homo peccati filius perditionis – Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless the [discessio] comes first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”

        Many English translations render this word as “apostasy” or “revolt.” The Latin term clearly has the sense of a “falling away” or “separation.” It is only at the time of the “falling away” that the bipartite condition of the world – two cities, one of God and one of the devil – will be wholly laid bare and displayed in what will actually be a “tripartite” division – the true Church, the false church, and the heathen world.

        Tyconius explains: “Before the ‘falling away’ happens, everyone is considered the people of God. When the ‘falling away’ will have happened, then the third part of the people of God will appear;”[xxxi] “for after the unity there is going to be another separation in the last contest.”[xxxii]

        For Tyconius, it is only when the “great discessio” occurs that the distinction between the true Church and the false church is finally made manifest. “Only in the discessio will God’s true people, the right part of the Lord’s body, be revealed.”[xxxiii]

        Commenting on Apocalypse 8:12, which reads:

        And the fourth angel sounded a trumpet, and a third part of the sun, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of the stars were stricken, so that a third part of them would be darkened and a third part of the day would appear as night,[xxxiv]

        Tyconius writes:

        The sun, moon, and stars are the church, whose third part was stricken. ‘Third’ is a designation not a quantity. For there are two parts in the church, one of the day and the other of the night…Therefore, for this reason it was stricken, that it might become apparent which is the third part of the day and the third part of the night, which is Christ’s part and which is the devil’s part. He [the Apostle John] did not say, ‘it was stricken and it was darkened,’ but so that it would be darkened and would appear since it did not appear as [night at the moment it] was stricken. But it was stricken, that is, handed over to its own desires, for this [purpose]: that as their sins become more abundant and extreme, it would be revealed in due time.[xxxv]

        To sum up: Tyconius holds that there are two cities in the world, one of God and the other of the devil, and at times he speaks of both of these cities as being bipartite. Yet, Tyconius does not divide humanity into four parts. As noted above, he actually envisions humanity to be only tripartite. This is because he speaks of the “false brethren” (one of the three parts) as falling into both categories at different times.

        The false brethren appear to be a part of the city of God, which is the Church, but actually belong to the devil. They spiritually inhabit the city of Babylon, even though that is not outwardly recognizable. Not until the Church is “stricken”[xxxvi] as a result of the discessio – the great “falling away” or “apostasy” – will the “false brethren” be fully “unmasked” and “uncovered” (the original meaning of the Greek word apokalyptein). Only then will the true Church and the false church at long last become conspicuously distinguished.

        The true believers will appear to leave the Church

        Tyconius next asserts what is arguably the most arresting detail in his entire commentary. He declares that the discessio of the end times will take place in a way that completely inverts the conventional understanding of the term.

        Faithful Christians usually assume that the “falling away” – the “separation,” the “departure” – will be instigated by droves of people “leaving” the Church, a massive exodus of unbelievers. The definition of “apostasy” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church – “a total repudiation of the Christian faith” – plainly conveys such an idea.

        For Tyconius, however, the opposite is true. Tyconius understands that the great “falling away” of the end times will not be caused by unfaithful people leaving the Bride of Christ, but rather by the Bride of Christ pulling away from those within her who are unfaithful. In other words, for Tyconius, it is not the infidels who will “fall away” but rather the true believers, who will withdraw from the evil within the Church. A paradoxical reversal indeed.

        For Tyconius, it is the new Israel who must depart on her new exodus. The true Church herself will effect the great apostasy as a way of salvation[xxxvii] from her enemies. In a real sense, the true Church will force the apostasy into the light, for the body of the devil, present in the false brothers inhabiting the Church, is already, and always has been, apostate. That fact has merely been concealed.

        Expounding on Apocalypse 16:19, which begins, “And the great city was divided into three parts,” Tyconius states: “This great city is all people entirely, everyone who is under heaven, who will be divided into three parts when the church is divided, resulting in the heathen being one part; and the ‘abomination of desolation,’ another; and the church, which will have gone out from the midst of her, a third.”[xxxviii] And again, in commenting on Apocalypse 18:4, “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people, so that you do not share in her sins and so that you are not stricken by her plagues,” Tyconius writes: “Here he [the Apostle John] shows more fully that Babylon consists of two separate parts, external and internal, out of which also holy people, having been clearly warned by God, will leave.”[xxxix]

        As Antonio Socci writes in his analysis of Tyconius’ theology: “The Latin word discessio means a separation or division, meaning a great cleavage or cutting in two. It also has the sense of withdrawal.”[xl] This withdrawal is patently what Tyconius infers from the revelations made by the angels of God to St. John the Apostle – that the cleavage will be the result of a withdrawal.

        The Mystical Bride of Christ will extract herself from the “the mystery of iniquity,” precisely in order to expose the evil veiled within her so that she may subsequently defeat it. “In the final persecution, the ‘mystery of iniquity,’ which had been held back and hidden within the church, will come out and be revealed.”[xli] That mystery of lawlessness will reach its zenith and be enfleshed in the figure of the Antichrist, as Tyconius explains: “t is necessary that Antichrist be revealed in the whole world, and in the same way to be overcome everywhere by the church… But now he is hidden in the church.”[xlii]

        As a consequence of the true Church extricating herself from the anti-church, Tyconius maintains that the Body of Christ will, for all intents and purposes, activate and initiate her own passion.

        Tyconius writes: “Before the ‘falling away’ [2 Thess 2:3] happens, everyone is considered the people of God. When the ‘falling away’ will have happened, then the third part of the people of God will appear.”[xliii] Robinson comments: “The saints will endure and faithfully preach God’s Word, and the false brothers will be unmasked when they turn and persecute the church: ‘those in league with the devil, although saying that they are Christians, will fight against the church.’”[xliv] Robinson thus concludes: “[t]he persecution finally and completely reveals the identity of the saints and the false brothers.”[xlv]

        Satan’s chosen instrument: The bishops

        At this point, a natural question is: At the time of the predestined apostasy, will the faithful immediately recognize the false brethren for what they are and break off affiliation with them, or will genuine believers be persuaded to remain in association with the impostors, listening to them and following their lead? How will the false brethren deceive people into trusting their guidance? Tyconius is unequivocally emphatic about this point: these false brethren are often found among the Church’s leaders, the bishops.

        In denouncing the hypocrisy of the bishops, Tyconius gives an account of the “second beast” introduced in Apocalypse 13:11: “And I saw another beast coming up out of the land. And he had two horns similar to those of a lamb, and he spoke as a snake.” Tyconius decries:

        A lamb carries on after a snake secretly inserts its venom [into it]. For if he spoke openly as a snake, he would not be similar to a lamb. Now he fashions himself into a lamb, through which [disguise] he attacks a secure lamb. He speaks for God, through which [disguise] he turns away from the way of truth those seeking God. Because of this the Lord said: ‘Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.’[xlvi]

        Tyconius concludes this passage with one of his most incisive observations: “The bishops do, under the guise of a gift of the church, what advances the will of the devil.”[xlvii] The bishops offer to the beast the veneer of a lamb, while he uses them as mouthpieces for his agenda.

        In another passage, St. John’s Apocalypse continues: “And I saw three unclean spirits [go forth] from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.[xlviii] Tyconius remarks: “For the dragon, that is, the devil; and the beast, the body of the devil; and the false prophets, that is, the bishops of the body of the devil, are one spirit.” [xlix]

        Furthermore, Tyconius declares, “the throne of the beast is his church,” [l] on account of the duplicitous bishops that will be under his sway. Those treacherous bishops will give shape and form to the devil’s body – the false church – even after the true Church has detached herself from it.

        The passion of the Church

        Once the apostasy has been enacted, however, the Bride of Christ (the true Church) will then be battling not only the false brothers but the heathen world as well, which will have joined forces with the false brothers in an openly united demonic front: “to the whole body of the devil it was permitted by God.”
        • Yet, there is no question in Tyconius’ mind of the final outcome for the Church: “the last persecution will purify her up to the seventh trumpet,” which will mark “the coming of the Lord.”[lii] That will be “the church of the future time when, with the wicked already separated from the midst, only the good will reign with Christ.”[liii] Thus, Tyconius is certain that “the church of the last time, whether in its bishops or in its people, is in no way able to perish.”[liv]

          Although she will be persecuted, like her Bridegroom, and even appear defeated, she cannot be permanently destroyed. She shares in the Bridegroom’s divine life. Furthermore, she will prevail over the Antichrist and ultimately rout the false church. Nevertheless, Tyconius had no illusions about the severity of that ultimate conflict. In what might be the most lucid and pristine section in his entire Exposition, when drawing the parallel between Christ and His Church, Tyconius emphasizes their interconnectedness:

          That which the head suffered once, now he suffers through his members, since he has clothed himself with his church: and the church is slain daily for Christ that it may live with him forever. No one should think that the apostles alone had died for Christ and that now martyrdom has ceased and that the persecutors are not in the church. For it is necessary that the Son of Man always goes “to Jerusalem…to suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and to be killed, and to rise again after three days.’[lv]

          Thus, in that culminating persecution, when the false brethren and the pagan world relentlessly attack the Church, the co-mingling of suffering between Jesus and His Mystical Body and Bride will reach its apex: “In her the Lord completes what he began. Therefore, in her he receives what he gave, and he is crowned in her whom he crowns. For there is nothing that he does or has without his body.”[lvi] Jesus gave His life for His Bride, the Church. In the end times, she will give herself for Him in a way she never has before. Just as Jesus glorified His Father through His self-offering, and His Father glorified Him with the glory that His Son had with Him before the world began,[lvii] so also the Church’s ultimate self-offering will be her crowning moment of giving herself completely for Christ, and He in turn will crown her. He and His Bride will then be perfectly one in their mutual gift of self.


        . . .


        The final confrontation: Examining the end times through the lens of Fatima and Benedict XVI - LifeSite (lifesitenews.com)


      Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

      Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

      Offline AnthonyPadua

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      Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
      « Reply #1 on: December 27, 2023, 08:43:25 AM »
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      • I believe there's an article on Tyconius in the CE, and there's a lot of material on the internet about him. He was a Donatist who on grounds distinct from whatever form of the Donatist heresy he held to was influential on St. Augustine, the Venerable Bede and other Catholics  regarding his "rules" for interpretation of Scripture and the Amillenial interpretation of the Book of the Apocalypse.

        There's a fascinating article on him on Lifesite from which I am posting excerpts below. I'm sure some will go on to read the application of Tyconius to Benedict XVI and Fatima made by the article and stuff will then fly regarding that in the thread, but the point of the post (and hence the excerpts) is Tyconius's fascinating view of the Apocalypse and end times themes.

        Really incredible stuff to reflect on.

        The article with excerpt (full link below):
        Someone send this to the dimonds so they can make a nice long video on this.[/list]


        Offline DecemRationis

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        Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
        « Reply #2 on: December 27, 2023, 11:35:42 AM »
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        • Someone send this to the dimonds so they can make a nice long video on this.[/list]

          Some of Tyconius's readings really hit home and ring true under the reality of the Conciliar Church. Powerful, prophetic analysis I think. 

          I've ordered the translation of a scholarly attempt to put together his original, lost manuscript on the Apocalypse by gathering the citations in other ancient works.  

          I'll start a thread with some quotes after I receive it and read it. 
          Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

          Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

          Offline Angelus

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          Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
          « Reply #3 on: December 27, 2023, 03:29:57 PM »
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          • Some of Tyconius's readings really hit home and ring true under the reality of the Conciliar Church. Powerful, prophetic analysis I think. I've ordered the translation of a scholarly attempt to put together his original, lost manuscript on the Apocalypse by gathering the citations in other ancient works.  I'll start a thread with some quotes after I receive it and read it.
            DR, while understanding Tyconius himself is a pre-requisite, it is good to remember that he was a Donatist heretic. Many of his insights are helpful in understanding our current situation. But I think it is best to focus on Augustine's correction of Tyconius. He uses some of the categories described by Tyconius but reformulates them in a non-heretical way. Augustine's City of God is the result of that reformulation.

            Augustine teaches that the institutional Church, as long as we are on the earthly pilgrimage, will always include a mixture of saints and sinners (except for heretics, apostates and schismatics, who voluntarily separate themselves from the true Church). Only at the end of Salvation History will the wheat and the tares be separated by supernatural events. So the Institutional Church will include both wheat and tares until the Second Coming.

            But, again, Augustine emphasizes that those who have "defected from the Faith" are different from other types of sinners. The heretics/apostates/schismatics are "outside the Church" automatically, while normal sinners remain "inside the Church" and are to be treated as such. Tyconius, and the other Donatists, took a harder line against these normal sinners, refusing to be in communion with people who committed certain past sins even after repentance.

          Offline Angelus

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          Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
          « Reply #4 on: December 27, 2023, 05:36:36 PM »
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        • Here is a recent academic article in Augustine's view of Tyconius. Gives an idea about where they agree and where they differ.

          See attachment.


          Offline DecemRationis

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          Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
          « Reply #5 on: December 28, 2023, 06:25:33 AM »
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          • DR, while understanding Tyconius himself is a pre-requisite, it is good to remember that he was a Donatist heretic. Many of his insights are helpful in understanding our current situation. But I think it is best to focus on Augustine's correction of Tyconius. He uses some of the categories described by Tyconius but reformulates them in a non-heretical way. Augustine's City of God is the result of that reformulation.

            Augustine teaches that the institutional Church, as long as we are on the earthly pilgrimage, will always include a mixture of saints and sinners (except for heretics, apostates and schismatics, who voluntarily separate themselves from the true Church). Only at the end of Salvation History will the wheat and the tares be separated by supernatural events. So the Institutional Church will include both wheat and tares until the Second Coming.

            But, again, Augustine emphasizes that those who have "defected from the Faith" are different from other types of sinners. The heretics/apostates/schismatics are "outside the Church" automatically, while normal sinners remain "inside the Church" and are to be treated as such. Tyconius, and the other Donatists, took a harder line against these normal sinners, refusing to be in communion with people who committed certain past sins even after repentance.

          Angelus,

          I don't see how the difference with the Donatists referred to in the last paragraph affects the theological position one takes with regard to eschatology. Sure, the Donatists might exclude more people from the true Church, but the theological distinction true Church/false Church remains unaffected  for purposes of eschatology. The Donatists would simply be adding more tares to the field, but the tare/wheat distinction still holds without any theological or conceptual distinction for the implicated eschatologies that I can see. 


          Thanks for the article, I've started reading it. 

          DR
          Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

          Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

          Offline Angelus

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          Re: Tyconius on the Apocalypse
          « Reply #6 on: December 28, 2023, 06:46:50 PM »
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        • Angelus,

          I don't see how the difference with the Donatists referred to in the last paragraph affects the theological position one takes with regard to eschatology. Sure, the Donatists might exclude more people from the true Church, but the theological distinction true Church/false Church remains unaffected  for purposes of eschatology. The Donatists would simply be adding more tares to the field, but the tare/wheat distinction still holds without any theological or conceptual distinction for the implicated eschatologies that I can see.


          Thanks for the article, I've started reading it.

          DR


          The Donatists are heretics because they incorrectly drew the line that separates those inside the Church and those outside the Church.

          The Donatists basically taught that the traditores committed a sin so heinous that could never be forgiven, and those traditores who were clergy had lost their Holy Orders and that those Orders could never be revived, which caused the recipients of the Sacraments from said clergy to be recipients if invalid Sacraments (in the eyes of the Donatists).

          Augustine and the Church Magisterium taught that the traditores may have committed a grave sin, but their souls could be revived by the Sacrament of Penance. And, importantly, that the Sacraments work ex opere operato, so even a sinful priest could distribute the Sacraments. Also, those Sacraments marking the soul with an indelible character cannot be undone by committing a sin.

          According to Augustine and the Magisterium, the only sins that put one "outside the Church" are the sins of "defection from the Faith" (i.e., heresy, apostasy, and schism). And even those sins can be repented for, allowing the person to re-enter the Church. The Donatists heretically expanded that list of sins that put a person "outside the Church." And this expansion had enormous consequences in justifying their schism from the True Church.