Author Topic: The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.  (Read 1636 times)

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Offline LaramieHirsch

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The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
« on: April 25, 2015, 07:45:56 PM »
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  • So, I read this today:

    https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/493/ArtMID/13569/ArticleID/17328/With-all-its-faults-and-failings-the-Catholic-Church-is-pretty-wonderful-.aspx


    The article title is: "With all its faults and failings, the Catholic Church is pretty wonderful And it’s time to start saying so again"

    Somehow, that title rubs me the wrong way.  

    So does this passage:

    Quote
    It hardly needs saying that the Catholic Church has had, and still does have, plenty to apologize for.

    And this one:

    Quote
    The difference with the Church is its recent willingness to admit its faults, starting with the scandal of sex abuse and coverup.



    Now, I'm not so sure that the Catholic Church has anything to apologize for whatsoever.  Am I wrong in assuming this?  It is not the Catholic Church that is to blame for whatever scandals and crimes that there ever may have been.  Rather, it is the bent elements within the Church who have failed the Church.  It is the individual people within the Church who have strayed from Her teachings that have erred, and it is those exclusive individuals who ought to be held to account for any wrongdoing.  The Catholic Church on Earth--the Church Militant--may have served as a vector for malice, but it was never ever the case that an individual who was doing exactly as the Church taught which led to any kind of tradgedy whatsoever.  

    The Catholic Church in this life and the next is completely blameless, and it is perfect.  The people who march under Her banner are the ones who have failed to keep up with the standards.  

    The Church has no faults or failings.  The Church has nothing to apologize for.  The clerics and prelates who want to admit the Church's 'faults' are mistaken, and they should instead be explaining any faults as resting on the shoulders of failures who could not serve as perfect examples.  

    Am I wrong in this?  Please, I want to hear what you have to say on this one.


    -
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #1 on: April 25, 2015, 07:48:14 PM »
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  • Here is a copy of the article, in case the author decides to backpeddle and remove it from existence.

    Quote
    Russell Shaw OSV Daily Take
    4/15/2015
     Is it time to revive Catholic triumphalism? On the whole, I’d say yes. At the very least, the question isn’t frivolous and deserves serious consideration. For after several decades during which Catholics have offered repeated apologies for a host of mistakes, sometimes real and sometimes imaginary, the feeling grows that a comparable effort devoted to tooting the Church’s horn is now long overdue.

    But, first, a word about that word, “triumphalism.” It’s a pejorative term that tends to set people’s teeth on edge. If using it bothers you, try “self-respect” instead. Whatever name you choose to give it, Bill Donohue is a practitioner where the Catholic Church is concerned.

    That’s clear from his new book, The Catholic Advantage (New York: Image). Never one to pussyfoot around, Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, lays out a documented and persuasive case for the advantage enjoyed by Catholics in relation to what he calls “the Three H’s”—health, happiness, and heaven.

    It hardly needs saying that the Catholic Church has had, and still does have, plenty to apologize for. In this, it’s hardly alone. The same is true of virtually every human institution — other churches, government and the political parties, Big Business, Big Labor, the academic world, professional sports, college sports, the medical and legal professions, the military, the entertainment industry. Even — could you believe it? — journalists and journalism.

    The difference with the Church is its recent willingness to admit its faults, starting with the scandal of sex abuse and coverup. It’s over 15 years since that horrible episode exploded on public consciousness in the U.S., and Catholic spokespersons are still beating their breasts for it. No doubt they should. But after all this time, surely the point has been made, the reforms are in place, and without altogether dropping the subject, it’s time to move on.

    Which brings me back to triumphalism — or self-respect — and its revival. The heart of it can be stated very simply: With all its faults and failings, the Catholic Church is pretty wonderful — and it’s time to start saying so again.

    A short list of ways the Church is wonderful includes the following: its sacramental system, especially the Eucharist; its vibrant tradition of prayer and asceticism; its body of doctrine, grounded in divine revelation and faithfully transmitted by a living teaching authority called the magisterium; its liturgy (when done with dignity and reverence); its vast network of institutions and programs for relieving human suffering and meeting human needs — schools, charities, hospitals, and much else; and the huge quantity of beautiful art, music, and architecture with which the Church has enriched the world over the centuries.

    In a special way, too, the Church today deserves credit for its stout-hearted defense of traditional values in regard to human life and human dignity in the face of ill-advised, politically correct pressures for change.

    Bill Donohue acknowledges that his central point is “profoundly countercultural,” but Donohue, holder of a doctorate in sociology, provides the evidence to support it. As he explains, “those who greet every limitation on their freedom as an unfair burden are the most likely to break norms—the rules of society that are commonly agreed to as a condition of civility. This is as unhealthy for the individual as it is destructive to society.”

    By contrast, he writes, “it is not the abandonment of constraint that liberates, it is its rational embrace.” And herein lies the Catholic advantage.

    If this be triumphalism, make the most of it.

    Russell Shaw is an OSV contributing editor.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline songbird

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #2 on: April 26, 2015, 09:43:47 AM »
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  • The Church that Christ founded, is the Perfect Society.  For the New Order to say we have faults and such, is it not pointing a finger to God, who is perfect.

    New Order is Communistic and you can best believe they know the schemes of how to write articles in such a way, to brain wash us.  Cardinal Manning has many writings that will set us straight.  He insists that all catholics and non-catholics need to educate themselves to the "Perfect Society" that Christ put into place and proves that the Church that Christ founded in Perfect.  Man is the one who sins and says, "I am Sorry, not God.  Cardinal Manning and Robert Wilberforce were converts to the Faith from the Anglican.  Hundreds of years we had of destruction of the Truth and had Luther, and Calvinism, and so many more.  The confusion caused weakening and take over and that take over continues.

    OSV Our Sunday Visitor is not Catholic, they are New Order and that says it enough, Communism, the peaceful way known as Fabian. Just one of the ways to take over.  National Churches were the goal and they did it.  A done deal.

    Very sad.  Don't fall for the "I apologize" to give us the impression that it is a Man made institute when Truth is it is Perfect, God's!

    Offline MrYeZe

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #3 on: April 26, 2015, 10:27:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch

    So, I read this today:

    https://www.osv.com/Article/TabId/493/ArtMID/13569/ArticleID/17328/With-all-its-faults-and-failings-the-Catholic-Church-is-pretty-wonderful-.aspx


    The article title is: "With all its faults and failings, the Catholic Church is pretty wonderful And it’s time to start saying so again"

    Somehow, that title rubs me the wrong way.  

    So does this passage:

    Quote
    It hardly needs saying that the Catholic Church has had, and still does have, plenty to apologize for.

    And this one:

    Quote
    The difference with the Church is its recent willingness to admit its faults, starting with the scandal of sex abuse and coverup.



    Now, I'm not so sure that the Catholic Church has anything to apologize for whatsoever.  Am I wrong in assuming this?  It is not the Catholic Church that is to blame for whatever scandals and crimes that there ever may have been.  Rather, it is the bent elements within the Church who have failed the Church.  It is the individual people within the Church who have strayed from Her teachings that have erred, and it is those exclusive individuals who ought to be held to account for any wrongdoing.  The Catholic Church on Earth--the Church Militant--may have served as a vector for malice, but it was never ever the case that an individual who was doing exactly as the Church taught which led to any kind of tradgedy whatsoever.  

    The Catholic Church in this life and the next is completely blameless, and it is perfect.  The people who march under Her banner are the ones who have failed to keep up with the standards.  

    The Church has no faults or failings.  The Church has nothing to apologize for.  The clerics and prelates who want to admit the Church's 'faults' are mistaken, and they should instead be explaining any faults as resting on the shoulders of failures who could not serve as perfect examples.  

    Am I wrong in this?  Please, I want to hear what you have to say on this one.


    -


    Well, modern 'Catholics' are neutered to the point where they actively accept such bullcrap as religious freedom and free speech.  So, when you talk to them about the blasphemy laws and the Inquisitions of the past, then yes, they would say the Church has plenty to apologize for.  Friggin liberals, man.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

       -Thomas Aquinas

    "Even if my own father were a heretic, I would gather the wood to burn him"

    -Pope Paul IV

    Offline PG

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #4 on: April 27, 2015, 12:38:50 PM »
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  • Laramie -  We need to remove the mote from our own eyes.  This is always the solution, no matter how great or small the problem(in this case, a big problem, the church as a whole).  Among our holy conversation, the blame always must fall on us(faithful catholics as having not done enough).  

    In the time of the apostles, there was one betrayer(judas).  That is 1 out of 12, and those are good numbers.  How many betrayers are among the heirarchy in our day(past 500 years)?  And, how many betrayers were among the heirarchy in the past 1000 years?  What was the statistic?  It certainly was not 1 to 12.  A good measuring stick is the holiness of popes.  Because, the superior forms the subject.  We have had only five saint popes in the last 1000 years, and we have had some absolutely rotten popes in the last 1000 years.  Compare that with the first 1000 years of the church, and I would say that blame is more than warranted.  Because, our measuring stick is Christ, and the early church existed.  Catholicisms founder is not aquinas, nor is it the wearer of the triple crown.

    I have read Butlers 4 volume lives of the saints, and the exciting reads are from the early church.  The past 1000 year reads did not offer near as much in my opinion.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #5 on: April 27, 2015, 07:49:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: + PG +
    Laramie -  We need to remove the mote from our own eyes.  This is always the solution, no matter how great or small the problem(in this case, a big problem, the church as a whole).  Among our holy conversation, the blame always must fall on us(faithful catholics as having not done enough).  

    In the time of the apostles, there was one betrayer(judas).  That is 1 out of 12, and those are good numbers.  How many betrayers are among the heirarchy in our day(past 500 years)?  And, how many betrayers were among the heirarchy in the past 1000 years?  What was the statistic?  It certainly was not 1 to 12.  A good measuring stick is the holiness of popes.  Because, the superior forms the subject.  We have had only five saint popes in the last 1000 years, and we have had some absolutely rotten popes in the last 1000 years.  Compare that with the first 1000 years of the church, and I would say that blame is more than warranted.  Because, our measuring stick is Christ, and the early church existed.  Catholicisms founder is not aquinas, nor is it the wearer of the triple crown.

    I have read Butlers 4 volume lives of the saints, and the exciting reads are from the early church.  The past 1000 year reads did not offer near as much in my opinion.  


    Yes, but it is the betrayers who are to blame.  Not the Church.  The Church on Earth, when adhered to, offers only good things to men.  It is men who screw everything up.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #6 on: April 27, 2015, 08:50:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Quote from: + PG +
    Laramie -  We need to remove the mote from our own eyes.  This is always the solution, no matter how great or small the problem(in this case, a big problem, the church as a whole).  Among our holy conversation, the blame always must fall on us(faithful catholics as having not done enough).  

    In the time of the apostles, there was one betrayer(judas).  That is 1 out of 12, and those are good numbers.  How many betrayers are among the heirarchy in our day(past 500 years)?  And, how many betrayers were among the heirarchy in the past 1000 years?  What was the statistic?  It certainly was not 1 to 12.  A good measuring stick is the holiness of popes.  Because, the superior forms the subject.  We have had only five saint popes in the last 1000 years, and we have had some absolutely rotten popes in the last 1000 years.  Compare that with the first 1000 years of the church, and I would say that blame is more than warranted.  Because, our measuring stick is Christ, and the early church existed.  Catholicisms founder is not aquinas, nor is it the wearer of the triple crown.

    I have read Butlers 4 volume lives of the saints, and the exciting reads are from the early church.  The past 1000 year reads did not offer near as much in my opinion.  


    Yes, but it is the betrayers who are to blame.  Not the Church.  The Church on Earth, when adhered to, offers only good things to men.  It is men who screw everything up.  


    Quite right!!
    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jew adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."

    Offline PG

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #7 on: April 27, 2015, 09:42:00 PM »
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  • Laramie - I really should just relent, you deal in ambiguity.  But, generations judge other generations(Matt: 12 : 41-42).  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline PG

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #8 on: April 29, 2015, 11:35:21 AM »
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  • Laramie - here is Isaias the prophet speaking of the heavenly city(the church).  "And a path and a way shall be there, and it shall be called the holy way.  The unclean shall not pass over it, and this shall be unto you a straight way, so that fools shall not err therein."  

    So, I put this to you, are the fools to blame that our way is not/has not been straight(the cause of their err)?  The answer is absolutely not.  Who is to blame for the unclean amongst our ranks?  Read the passage.  Is the church holy, or is it not?  The answer is, it is holy.   Because, it belongs to the holy.  

    In sum, it is a grave error to be blaming others.  We must blame ourselves.  

    As for apologizing for past generations, I am opposed to that.  Because, I am not at fault for past generations, and neither is any living member of the church.  So, if that is what you were hoping to emphasize in your initial OP(opposing the NO public apologies for past catholics), then we are in agreement.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #9 on: April 30, 2015, 06:35:15 PM »
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  • "You are the ones who are happy; you who remain within the Church by your Faith, who hold firmly to the foundations of the Faith which has come down to you from Apostolic Tradition. And if an execrable jealousy has tried to shake it on a number of occasions, it has not succeeded. They are the ones who have broken away from it in the present crisis. No one, ever, will prevail against your Faith, beloved Brothers. And we believe that God will give us our churches back some day.

    Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ."
    -St. Athanasius
    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jews have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jew adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #10 on: May 01, 2015, 05:23:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: + PG +

    So, I put this to you, are the fools to blame that our way is not/has not been straight(the cause of their err)?  The answer is absolutely not.  Who is to blame for the unclean amongst our ranks?  Read the passage.  Is the church holy, or is it not?  The answer is, it is holy.   Because, it belongs to the holy.  

    In sum, it is a grave error to be blaming others.  We must blame ourselves.  


    Okay, let me get this straight.  

    You are trying to make a distinction of who deserves blame.  You are telling me that we should not be blaming other people for the uncleanliness.  Instead, you are telling me that we should blame ourselves for the uncleanliness in the Church.  

    Either way, whether we're blaming other people or ourselves, we are talking about blaming people--human beings.  

    Whether it's the former or the latter, either is more correct than saying "The Church has a lot to apologize for."  

    The distinction I am drawing here is that The Church--this Institution that we are in, which is a pure institution that is powered by the Holy Spirit--is good, clean, and blemishless.  The Church has nothing to apologize for.  It is individual human beings who are culpable for whatever crimes you'd want to point out.  But in no way whatsoever has the Catholic Church caused any kind of a crime in the history of mankind.  

    I am not trying to be ambiguous.  If anything, I am trying to clean up, clarify, and make distinctions that the author in the OP failed to make.  

    The author in the OP appears to be lumping together both The Church and the fallen culpable men within the Church.  I am taking issue with the author--and everyone who thinks that the Catholic Church is guilty of crimes.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 08:56:00 AM »
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  • So, it seems I was able to post a comment on one of Mark Shea's blog posts today.  I thought he banned me, but maybe he clears his banned list once a month.  I dunno.  

    In any event, he was talking about slavery and how the Church may have once condoned it.  

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2015/05/question-about-magisterial-failures.html


    Quote
    "Along the way, she [The Church] made mistakes and committed sins (like the “perpetual servitude” thing)."


    My reply was:

    Quote
    I wish that people would stop saying that The Church has sinned. It's the hierarchy that errs. The Church never errs. Whenever anyone is following the whole and complete teachings of The Church, they can never do wrong. I cannot imagine The Church sinning or erring in either Purgatory or Heaven. The Church is one whole fabric--one entire piece of cloth.

    I wish people would just say: "The Church hierarchy made mistakes and comitted sins."


    We'll see if Shea keeps my comment up.  I somehow doubt it.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    The Catholic Chuch has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    « Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 09:57:45 AM »
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  • Laramie is correct.  The Catholic Church is a perfect society!

    On Ex-Cathedra matters, the Pope is infallible.  This extends somewhat to Bishops and Priests because they act "in persona Christi" also.

    Popes and Bishops and Priests can err and become evil, the Catholic Church cannot.  As long as people don't mistake one for the other, errors can be avoided.  This means that the standards should be higher for clerics because spiritually and canonically, the standars are higher for clerics.  



     

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