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Author Topic: The Caliber of Seminaries  (Read 2411 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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The Caliber of Seminaries
« on: May 22, 2023, 11:39:09 PM »
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    • Which Catholic seminaries have the best standards today? I would especially like to see Matthew and Ladislaus chime in on this one. 

    I remember Matthew mentioning in another past thread that the SSPX seminary does not speak in Latin in the classes anymore.

    Also, I remember you perhaps said also in the past, Matthew, that the standard of traditional Catholic seminaries today were good even if not as high in standard as those of the early 19th century. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #1 on: May 23, 2023, 12:19:43 AM »
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    • Alas, my experiences are from about 33 years ago now.  I felt that STAS in the late 1980s / early 1990s was of decent quality.  You did cover the necessary material, even though it was obvious that only about 10% of the seminarians actually absorbed it ... doing just well enough to pass through.  Similarly, the professors did not exactly have advanced degrees.  Some of them became seminary professors pretty much "fresh out" from seminary themselves.  Nevertheless, those who were bright could take advantage of the classes and get a very solid education.  Apart from the academics, I found the formation there to be solid ... excepting a small tendency among a few there toward something that almost had a Jansenist flavor.  There were a group of 7 in particular to whom we jokingly referred as "The 7 Penitential Psalms".  Unfortunately, that "strictness" took a big turn with the next generation of priests to an almost worldly spirit, a transformation that began under Urrutigoity.  After that, I can't speak much to it.  Where I leave off is about where Matthew arrived on the scene, and he could probably pick it up from there.

    Bishop Sanborn's seminary was very solid academically ... although during the brief time I was there, it was just two of us studying for the priesthood, so the overall formation was almost non-existent.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #2 on: May 23, 2023, 06:27:28 AM »
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    • The time for seminaries has ended; the time for has returned for one-on-one, tutelage-style formation between a priest-mentor and cleric-intern.
    How many down-votes will this receive?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #3 on: May 23, 2023, 06:46:51 AM »
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    • Avrille.

    Period.

    By far.
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    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #4 on: May 23, 2023, 07:59:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Kephapaulos on May 22, 2023, 11:39:09 PM
    Which Catholic seminaries have the best standards today? I would especially like to see Matthew and Ladislaus chime in on this one.

    I remember Matthew mentioning in another past thread that the SSPX seminary does not speak in Latin in the classes anymore.

    Also, I remember you perhaps said also in the past, Matthew, that the standard of traditional Catholic seminaries today were good even if not as high in standard as those of the early 19th century.
    I asked my priest who was in the American seminary in Ridgefield in the 1980s if they spoke Latin in the classes, and he told me that they didn't. They did have "Latin fridays" where the seminarians would only speak Latin on Fridays, but that's about it. Seminary classes being given in Latin is sadly extinct, this wasn't a new change that the SSPX did in the 2000s. The reason why seminaries before vatican 2 had their classes in Latin, is because most seminarians already went to a minor seminary and learned how to speak Latin, so they were ready to speak Latin in the major seminary.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #5 on: May 23, 2023, 08:28:33 AM »
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    • I suspect that speaking Latin in class was a thing of the past even before Vatican II ... probably by the 1940s - 1950s.

    But, yes, we had to speak Latin during lunchtime on Fridays, and it was very quiet on those days apart from a few "Da michi shpudibish" phrases (uttered by one Joseph Pfeiffer).  :laugh1:
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    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #6 on: May 23, 2023, 09:10:26 AM »
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    • Classes at Avrille are conducted in Latin.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #7 on: May 23, 2023, 09:47:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on May 23, 2023, 09:10:26 AM
    Classes at Avrille are conducted in Latin.

    Few can make it through the formation, because:

    1) Outside the classroom, there is still the Horarium to contend with (i.e., the daily schedule, which begins at 3AM, no meat, etc.);

    2) Supposing you could endure the Rule, and were not native French, you are learning two new languages at once (French and Latin).

    3) The washout rate is attrocious: To date, no American SAJM seminarian (i.e., Avrille runs the seminary which, for the time being, teaches both SAJM and Avrille vocations) has made it through.  They keep washing out and either heading for Ireland, or change tracks to become lay brothers.  A couple Americans have made it in the past, though, as Dominicans (e.g., Fr. Terrence Boyle).  I think one other?
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    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #8 on: May 23, 2023, 09:59:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 23, 2023, 09:47:59 AM
    Few can make it through the formation, because:

    1) Outside the classroom, there is still the Horarium to contend with (i.e., the daily schedule, which begins at 3AM, no meat, etc.);

    2) Supposing you could endure the Rule, and were not native French, you are learning two new languages at once (French and Latin).

    3) The washout rate is attrocious: To date, no American SAJM seminarian (i.e., Avrille runs the seminary which, for the time being, teaches both SAJM and Avrille vocations) has made it through.  They keep washing out and either heading for Ireland, or change tracks to become lay brothers.  A couple Americans have made it in the past, though, as Dominicans (e.g., Fr. Terrence Boyle).  I think one other?
    Fr. Angelico is an American as well, I think.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #9 on: May 23, 2023, 09:59:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 23, 2023, 09:47:59 AM
    Few can make it through the formation, because:

    1) Outside the classroom, there is still the Horarium to contend with (i.e., the daily schedule, which begins at 3AM, no meat, etc.);

    2) Supposing you could endure the Rule, and were not native French, you are learning two new languages at once (French and Latin).

    3) The washout rate is attrocious: To date, no American SAJM seminarian (i.e., Avrille runs the seminary which, for the time being, teaches both SAJM and Avrille vocations) has made it through.  They keep washing out and either heading for Ireland, or change tracks to become lay brothers.  A couple Americans have made it in the past, though, as Dominicans (e.g., Fr. Terrence Boyle).  I think one other?
    Fr. Angelico is an American.
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    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #10 on: May 23, 2023, 10:06:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 23, 2023, 09:47:59 AM
     A couple Americans have made it in the past, though, as Dominicans (e.g., Fr. Terrence Boyle).  I think one other?
    .

    Is that the same person as this Terrence Boyle?
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    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #11 on: May 23, 2023, 10:11:55 AM »
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    • As someone who’s researched this question quite a bit, I’ll give my two cents


    In America, the most rigorous Traditional seminary is almost certainly OLOG( the FSSP seminary) Almost all of their professors have advanced degrees and students have the option to take Ancient Greek. I know many on here don’t consider the FSSP Traditional, but that debate can be put aside for the moment.

    Avrille is extremely rigorous as well from what I’ve heard. Sean has already mentioned the particulars there. The Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer( an Indult Dominican community) is similar to Avrille in many ways when it comes to the way they train seminarians- very rigorous formation

    Outside of Traditionalist groups, the Dominican House of Studies in DC has a reputation for academic rigor.

    I’ve known SSPX seminarians and professors and I’ve never heard of Latin being spoken in classes. Learning to read Latin is hard enough( let alone speak it) I do know that some of the seminarians can read Latin.

    The overall landscape of seminaries is very poor. Very few serious options 

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    Offline B from A

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #12 on: May 23, 2023, 10:27:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on May 23, 2023, 10:06:36 AM
    .

    Is that the same person as this Terrence Boyle?

    No.

    "Fr. Terence Boyle, O.P. (Dominican of Avrille`)  was ordained 21 June 2013 by +HE Alfonzo de Galarreta at St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, Winona, MN.  He resides in the Couvent de La Haye-auxBonshommes, Avrille’, France."
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    Online Yeti

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #13 on: May 23, 2023, 10:54:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: B from A on May 23, 2023, 10:27:16 AM
    No.

    "Fr. Terence Boyle, O.P. (Dominican of Avrille`)  was ordained 21 June 2013 by +HE Alfonzo de Galarreta at St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, Winona, MN.  He resides in the Couvent de La Haye-auxBonshommes, Avrille’, France."
    .

    I see. Thank you.

    I asked because Terence Boyle has done a remarkable study of traditional Catholic bishops, and put together a sort of directory of them. It hasn't been updated since 2007, though. I don't necessarily recommend it because he seems to be against traditionalism as such, so as a source it's probably biased, but I put it here for what it's worth.

    The website itself looks like it was created in the 90s. :trollface:
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    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: The Caliber of Seminaries
    « Reply #14 on: May 23, 2023, 11:07:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Domingo Banez on May 23, 2023, 10:11:55 AM
    As someone who’s researched this question quite a bit, I’ll give my two cents


    In America, the most rigorous Traditional seminary is almost certainly OLOG( the FSSP seminary) Almost all of their professors have advanced degrees and students have the option to take Ancient Greek. I know many on here don’t consider the FSSP Traditional, but that debate can be put aside for the moment.

    Avrille is extremely rigorous as well from what I’ve heard. Sean has already mentioned the particulars there. The Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer( an Indult Dominican community) is similar to Avrille in many ways when it comes to the way they train seminarians- very rigorous formation

    Outside of Traditionalist groups, the Dominican House of Studies in DC has a reputation for academic rigor.

    I’ve known SSPX seminarians and professors and I’ve never heard of Latin being spoken in classes. Learning to read Latin is hard enough( let alone speak it) I do know that some of the seminarians can read Latin.

    The overall landscape of seminaries is very poor. Very few serious options
    SSPX seminary teaches you how to read, understand, and pray in Latin, but not to speak it in a conversational manner.
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