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Author Topic: The biggest reason I'm not Sede  (Read 339557 times)

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Offline Freind

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Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #135 on: Today at 09:43:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 09:28:45 PM
    And, even if I agreed with St. Vincent Ferrer on his choice of pope, there would be nothing wrong with assisting at the Mass of a priest who felt it was one of the others.

    That's the argument I had on X, where the priest said basically that formal intention meant nothing ... which is absurd.

    Not everything mistaken is absurd, in common parlance.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #136 on: Today at 09:48:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 09:33:27 PM
    This is a bad comparison you are making (due to the nature of manifest, public heresy), see:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/'popes'-of-the-western-schism-same-as-the-'popes'-of-vatican-ii/

    This is obviously the context St. Vincent meant the following in (a formal adherence to an antipope when known);

    “...by adhering to one who is not pope, as though he were pope, by showing papal reverence to him, they transgress the first precept of the first table, in which is commanded to man: ‘thou shalt not worship a strange god, nor idols, nor a statue, nor any likeness from heaven.’ For who indeed is a false pope, if not some strange god in this world, or an idol, or a statue, or the fictitious likeness of Jesus Christ?”

    -St Vincent Ferrer

    But the Saint didn't have a problem with people thinking Pope A was real while going to a Mass where the priest thought Pope B was real. This means that those who assist are NOT showing papal reverence to the specifically named pope the priest is mentioning in the canon.

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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #137 on: Today at 09:56:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 09:48:25 PM
    But the Saint didn't have a problem with people thinking Pope A was real while going to a Mass where the priest thought Pope B was real. This means that those who assist are NOT showing papal reverence to the specifically named pope the priest is mentioning in the canon.
    Again, you are missing the critical distinction that those times (Western Schism) what divided them was not issues of doctrine/heresies as it is now between trads and the conciliar church.

    The nature of the crisis then was different, those people only had material errors about who was Pope, but among all the potential "Popes" they were all orthodox, not like now when all the post-vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics that push their heresy to all.
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #138 on: Today at 09:59:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 09:56:58 PM
    Again, you are missing the critical distinction that those times (Western Schism) what divided them was not issues of doctrine/heresies as it is now between trads and the conciliar church.

    The nature of the crisis then was different, those people only had material errors about who was Pope, but among all the potential "Popes" they were all orthodox, not like now when all the post-vatican II claimants are manifest public heretics that push their heresy to all.

    I was addressing what you gave St. Vincent to say, "adhering to one who is not pope, as though he were pope, by showing papal reverence to him". What I said fits that.
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #139 on: Today at 10:02:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 09:59:43 PM
    I was addressing what you gave St. Vincent to say, "adhering to one who is not pope, as though he were pope, by showing papal reverence to him". What I said fits that.
    Sure, but using the Western Schism as a comparison is bad it "doesn't fit" our current crisis due to the nature of manifest, public heresy. 
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    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #140 on: Today at 10:11:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on Today at 10:02:12 PM
    Sure, but using the Western Schism as a comparison is bad it "doesn't fit" our current crisis due to the nature of manifest, public heresy.

    It only addresses the FACET of the "lie". As if a lay person who believes Pope A is legitimate and assists at a Mass where the priest believes Pope B is legitimate would be lying. The fact that St. Vincent had no problem with that shows it is not a lie.
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    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #141 on: Today at 10:23:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Freind on Today at 10:11:31 PM

    It only addresses the FACET of the "lie". As if a lay person who believes Pope A is legitimate and assists at a Mass where the priest believes Pope B is legitimate would be lying. The fact that St. Vincent had no problem with that shows it is not a lie.
    In their case, everyone wanted to be Catholic and hold the entire faith in subjection to legitimate authority. Due to the nature of the crisis, it made it near impossible for many to distinguish who the true Pope was, so of course their formal intention to remain united to the Church sufficed to hold all those in communion who had that motive. So, even if traveling Vincent was saying "Benedict XIII" in the Canon everywhere he went and the locals where thinking it was one of the other claimants, it would not have invalidated his Masses or made anyone guilty of any sin for being in a purely material error about who the actual Pope was. To knowingly proclaim communion with a manifest public heretic runs contrary to faith. I think we agree on this.

    But, with the nature of our own crisis their is an additional factor that alters the dynamic - manifest, public heresy.
    So, based on that criteria we have to not conflate examples of pure schism and material schism with those of heresy, loss of office, renouncing communion with heretics, etc.
    This is all I am pointing out to you because you made that bad comparison:
    Quote from: Freind on Today at 09:10:42 PM

    When there were three popes during the so-called Western Schism, Christendom had no issue with people choosing to only go to the Mass of a priest who believed in the same pope. It wasn't a lie for John Doe to be in union with a priest saying Mass who inserted the name of a pope whom John Doe didn't believe was pope. The issue did not exist. Because it all about formal intention.

    I do not think anyone on this forum (of good will) intends to formally declare they are one in faith and eccelsisial subordination with manifest, public heretics.

    So the issue for some then must be they really do not believe that the post-concilar popes are manifest, public heretics,

    Maybe they are just "bad, wicked, evil, sinful" Popes.

    or,

    They don't know that such acts sever one from the Church and loss-of-office is automatic before declaratory sentence,

    or,

    They could care less who the Pope is or isn't and manifest, public heresy or otherwise, they just want to go to Mass and it doesn't bother them in the least.

    or....etc.
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