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Author Topic: The biggest reason I'm not Sede  (Read 351556 times)

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Offline SimonJude

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Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2025, 08:30:12 PM »
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  • Pounding another's head in response looks SO much like a liberal reaction!
    :laugh1::laugh2:

    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #121 on: November 25, 2025, 08:35:32 PM »
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  • Offline Sylvanus Rinaldo

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #122 on: Yesterday at 12:33:57 PM »
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  • For those that say that Sedevacantism solves nothing and offers no solutions, I find that a strange argument. Sedevacantism is an explanation of the crisis. It is simply a conclusion that you either find logical and agree with or not. 

    It is like having a political discussion with someone who has recently gone down many rabbit holes and is coming to some of your conclusions, but still holds on to some of their political programming. You tell them that virtually all world governments, corporations, entertainment, education, etc are all run by Lucifarians under the guise of Freemasons, тαℓмυdists, and even Christians. That they all are working towards the same evil agenda. That regardless of claimed political party, virtually no one makes it to political prominence without being a part of that evil system, directly or indirectly. That you choose not to even vote anymore because even if all of these corrupt evil politicians weren't on the same side, that the voting system is rigged and untrustworthy anyway. That you choose to do your best to just focus on your daily life, your salvation, your family, homeschooling, prepping, etc. And then the person's rebuttal is, "well you have to vote man, you're not offering any solutions". 

    That may be an imperfect analogy, but what I'm trying to say is that perhaps there are circuмstances in which there really are not obvious solutions around the corner and we have to have humility to control what we can, and patience and faith that God is allowing these things and will fix it on his time, not ours.

    I find it very strange that some traditionalists will bash Sedevacantists, but they operate in their day to day lives as though there is no Pope anyway. That they would have doubt and spread calumnies against +Thuc and the consecrations he performed late in life during the crisis, but have little to no issue with +Williamson doing the same thing. Were not both men likely just seeing the end of their lives approaching, and no better solution in sight then to try to preserve valid sacraments for the faithful? Why not look to the faith that we all hold dear and have some charity for each other. 

    Personally, I hold the sedevacantist position because I find it to be the most logical explanation of the crisis, and the most logically consistent position to hold as a Catholic. I believe that R&R mentality can lead one to a very protestant mindset of popesifting for what they personally agree with and find consistent with the magisterium, and what they disagree with and find modernist. And respectfully, that has always been my hangup with some of the positions of Fr Cekada (may he rest in peace). The idea that you can celebrate whatever holy week you prefer, or omit the Leonine prayers, reject the feast of St Joseph the Worker, etc. I believe that despite him coming to the Sedevacantist position, his formation in the SSPX gave him the bold confidence to say, with regard to Pope Pius XII "this is a valid Pope, but I disagree with this, for this reason, Bugnini, etc so I will do something else". This is why I find the CMRI take on the crisis to be the most consistent. They practice the Catholic faith as it was left to us at the time of our last certainly good Pope, follow everything that he instructed through his Papacy, and reject the V2 revolution in its entirety. I think that's logically consistent and practical.

    Having said all of that, like most sedes, I have many family members who attend the SSPX and I do not consider them to be less Catholic. Whether we agree on the crisis or not, we are faithfully trying to live our Catholic Faith and receive the sacraments as worthily and as frequently as possible. I do not post on CI often, and initially was not intending to interject into this thread, as I often find that these discussions just lead to more division and needless infighting among the faithful, but thought that sharing where I am coming from may resonate with some. 
    Matthew 10: 38 And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #123 on: Yesterday at 03:12:15 PM »
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  • I find it very strange that some traditionalists will bash Sedevacantists, but they operate in their day to day lives as though there is no Pope anyway. That they would have doubt and spread calumnies against +Thuc and the consecrations he performed late in life during the crisis, but have little to no issue with +Williamson doing the same thing. Were not both men likely just seeing the end of their lives approaching, and no better solution in sight then to try to preserve valid sacraments for the faithful? Why not look to the faith that we all hold dear and have some charity for each other.
    Well, generically, popes have very little if anything to do with our day to day lives, which we strive to live according to the faith. And most trads I know do not spread calumnies against +Thuc for the reason you gave.

     I agree with your last sentence, but I do wonder why it is that once the typical trad has embraced the sede position, they tend to seek out and join other sede priests/chapels so as to separate themselves from the faithful trads who simply continue to  maintain living their faith without any concern as to the pope's status.    
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #124 on: Yesterday at 03:48:41 PM »
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  • And respectfully, that has always been my hangup with some of the positions of Fr Cekada (may he rest in peace). The idea that you can celebrate whatever holy week you prefer, or omit the Leonine prayers, reject the feast of St Joseph the Worker, etc. I believe that despite him coming to the Sedevacantist position, his formation in the SSPX gave him the bold confidence to say, with regard to Pope Pius XII "this is a valid Pope, but I disagree with this, for this reason, Bugnini, etc so I will do something else".

    There are always some things to work through. Lay people need to stop being so sensitive when they hear someone suggesting their priests are mistaken. I was never perfectly in tune with Fr. Cekada. There is actually a lot more to the subject of the 50's changes, and one of them is there is good reason to believe Pius XII was unaware of them. But I won't go into that here. Another is that something can BECOME extrinsically harmful over time because of changing circuмstances (heliocentrism being an example in reverse).

    This is why I find the CMRI take on the crisis to be the most consistent. They practice the Catholic faith as it was left to us at the time of our last certainly good Pope, follow everything that he instructed through his Papacy, and reject the V2 revolution in its entirety. I think that's logically consistent and practical.

    Again, there are things existing that need addressing. It's not as well as you think.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 04:04:01 PM »
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  • I do wonder why it is that once the typical trad has embraced the sede position, they tend to seek out and join other sede priests/chapels so as to separate themselves from the faithful trads who simply continue to  maintain living their faith without any concern as to the pope's status.   
    Well, there is nothing complicated about it at all if you simply understand the Catholic teaching that;

    1) When one is convicted with the moral certainty of the manifest, public heresy of the post-Vatican II claimants...
    2) that not only is it allowed but it would be OBLIGATORY to separate from their communion.

    Many sedes figure this out (often after years of rejecting the Catholic teaching because they have been conditioned to do so in name of a superficial communion among all trads - "tradecuмenism") and choose willingly to separate from those who affirm the first truth, but deny the second (such as yourself).
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/una-cuм-question-an-ai-bug-or-catholic-teaching/

    Now there could be other reasons a sede would want to seperate from non-sedes i.e.,

    Wanting to be around others who think like you have the same opinions as you.
    Not wanting to confuse your children on matters of the papacy and heresy loss-of-office, infallibility, etc.
    Maybe the sedes chapel is newer and closer than the old R&R chapel.
    Maybe the priest at the R&R is dogmatic and ran them out.
    etc.
    etc.
    etc.

    But none of these above reasons are purely doctrinal reasons, the "Una cuм issue" is based on Catholic teaching alone regardless of personal circuмstances (young, old, rich, poor, smart, dumb, etc.)

    Anyone can understand that to declare you are in communion with someone you are morally certain is manifest, public heretic would be a gross offense against Truth by giving credence to a lie before God.

    Of course the right distinctions have to be in place, thus if one is not truly convicted of the manifest public heresy of these pretenders they would not be sinning in the subjective sense by ignoring their Catholic-formed conscience - only God can read the heart.


    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 04:21:18 PM »
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  • Well, generically, popes have very little if anything to do with our day to day lives, which we strive to live according to the faith. And most trads I know do not spread calumnies against +Thuc for the reason you gave.

     I agree with your last sentence, but I do wonder why it is that once the typical trad has embraced the sede position, they tend to seek out and join other sede priests/chapels so as to separate themselves from the faithful trads who simply continue to  maintain living their faith without any concern as to the pope's status.   
    The problem, I think, lies with the people want to follow leadership.  If we choose to be Catholic, we choose to follow a hierarchy.  Since Vatican 2 and the Popes who came after, make everything suspect, then people choose sides and in their pride want their side to win.  It is just human nature, I am afraid.  The best of Catholics, admit they do not know, they pick a side to raise their family and try to stay consistent.  I know it is not ideal, I just wish both sides had more charity to those who look at the situation differently.  Please take this as addition to your comment, not a criticism.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 04:31:40 PM »
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  • But none of these above reasons are purely doctrinal reasons, the "Una cuм issue" is based on Catholic teaching alone regardless of personal circuмstances (young, old, rich, poor, smart, dumb, etc.)

    Anyone can understand that to declare you are in communion with someone you are morally certain is manifest, public heretic would be a gross offense against Truth by giving credence to a lie before God.

    We know those people INTEND to mention a true pope. This makes their mistake only a material error.

    If you were in a dire situation where a person was dying and needed baptism, and you were there but couldn't perform it, you would be allowed to condone a Protestant baptizing the person. This is because the Protestant is materially wrong about where the true Church is, but intends FORMALLY on doing what the true Church wishes.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 04:44:07 PM »
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  • We know those people INTEND to mention a true pope. This makes their mistake only a material error.
    Right, that is all clearly explained in the distinction concerning being truly convicted in one's conscience (as stated above).

    The issue is you will have some dogmatic R&R who will claim from sun up to sun down that, "Leo is a manfest, public heretic I am truly convicted of it to my bones. Yet still, he is truly Pope and now I shall go to Mass and pray for him to be a good Catholic Pope."

    The moral problem with that can be one or several issues;

    1) They really aren't convicted that Leo is a manifest public heretic. (If they don't believe he is and don't say he is no problem, maybe no sin there - they just look foolish).

    2) They don't understand what the "Una cuм" means in relation to expressing unity in eccelsisial faith. (MATERIAL ERROR ONLY)

    3) They see no problem with going against their conscience and telling a lie to God during the Mass. (THERE IS SIN HERE).

    And then of course there could be those who actually know the teaching about this and choose to ignore it for human respect or other purely human motives and there of course would be sin here as well.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #129 on: Yesterday at 09:10:42 PM »
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  • Right, that is all clearly explained in the distinction concerning being truly convicted in one's conscience (as stated above).

    The issue is you will have some dogmatic R&R who will claim from sun up to sun down that, "Leo is a manfest, public heretic I am truly convicted of it to my bones. Yet still, he is truly Pope and now I shall go to Mass and pray for him to be a good Catholic Pope."

    The moral problem with that can be one or several issues;

    1) They really aren't convicted that Leo is a manifest public heretic. (If they don't believe he is and don't say he is no problem, maybe no sin there - they just look foolish).

    2) They don't understand what the "Una cuм" means in relation to expressing unity in eccelsisial faith. (MATERIAL ERROR ONLY)

    3) They see no problem with going against their conscience and telling a lie to God during the Mass. (THERE IS SIN HERE).

    And then of course there could be those who actually know the teaching about this and choose to ignore it for human respect or other purely human motives and there of course would be sin here as well.

    If someone thinks a manifest public heretic can be a pope, then the problem is them; they are wrong about it.

    If a pope automatically ceases to be pope, and people don't notice for 24 hours, all the Mass in the world aren't sacrilegious for that day because they are objectively in union with him. It's about intention.

    When there were three popes during the so-called Western Schism, Christendom had no issue with people choosing to only go to the Mass of a priest who believed in the same pope. It wasn't a lie for John Doe to be in union with a priest saying Mass who inserted the name of a pope whom John Doe didn't believe was pope. The issue did not exist. Because it all about formal intention.

    There are other extrinsic moral imperatives today for sedevacantists to stay away from R&R Masses and Sacraments.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #130 on: Yesterday at 09:24:54 PM »
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  • So, holding that a manifest heretic remains pope is the Cajetan Opinion and the other one where he can never be deposed, even minister ally.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 09:28:45 PM »
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  • If someone thinks a manifest public heretic can be a pope, then the problem is them; they are wrong about it.

    If a pope automatically ceases to be pope, and people don't notice for 24 hours, all the Mass in the world aren't sacrilegious for that day because they are objectively in union with him. It's about intention.

    When there were three popes during the so-called Western Schism, Christendom had no issue with people choosing to only go to the Mass of a priest who believed in the same pope. It wasn't a lie for John Doe to be in union with a priest saying Mass who inserted the name of a pope whom John Doe didn't believe was pope. The issue did not exist. Because it all about formal intention.

    There are other extrinsic moral imperatives today for sedevacantists to stay away from R&R Masses and Sacraments.

    And, even if I agreed with St. Vincent Ferrer on his choice of pope, there would be nothing wrong with assisting at the Mass of a priest who felt it was one of the others.

    That's the argument I had on X, where the priest said basically that formal intention meant nothing ... which is absurd.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 09:33:27 PM »
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  • When there were three popes during the so-called Western Schism, Christendom had no issue with people choosing to only go to the Mass of a priest who believed in the same pope. It wasn't a lie for John Doe to be in union with a priest saying Mass who inserted the name of a pope whom John Doe didn't believe was pope. The issue did not exist. Because it all about formal intention.
    This is a bad comparison you are making (due to the nature of manifest, public heresy), see:
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/'popes'-of-the-western-schism-same-as-the-'popes'-of-vatican-ii/

    To equate these times with those of the Western Schism omits the critical issue of the heresies that we are dealing with now.
    Then it was only a matter of internal politics and power struggles, NOT and issue of doctrine.
    Now the issue is doctrinal.
    potato - patato 

    This is obviously the context St. Vincent meant the following in (a formal adherence to an antipope when known);

    “...by adhering to one who is not pope, as though he were pope, by showing papal reverence to him, they transgress the first precept of the first table, in which is commanded to man: ‘thou shalt not worship a strange god, nor idols, nor a statue, nor any likeness from heaven.’ For who indeed is a false pope, if not some strange god in this world, or an idol, or a statue, or the fictitious likeness of Jesus Christ?”

    -St Vincent Ferrer



    Offline Freind

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 09:36:37 PM »
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  • So, holding that a manifest heretic remains pope is the Cajetan Opinion and the other one where he can never be deposed, even minister ally.

    All opinions once tolerated didn't stay that way. Remember Bellarmine said one of the 5 opinions was the true one? Once 1870 passed by, approved Catholic writings spoke in terms of one truth.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #134 on: Yesterday at 09:36:51 PM »
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  • And, even if I agreed with St. Vincent Ferrer on his choice of pope, there would be nothing wrong with assisting at the Mass of a priest who felt it was one of the others.

    That's the argument I had on X, where the priest said basically that formal intention meant nothing ... which is absurd.
    There would be a problem if you were morally certain that the one name in the Canon was a manifest, public heretic. To go against that certitude would be sinful no?