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Author Topic: The biggest reason I'm not Sede  (Read 686 times)

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Offline Matthew

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The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« on: Today at 12:48:56 AM »
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  • Is because "sedevacantism" is divisive. It's adding a COMPLETELY UN-NECESSARY division to the world of Traditional Catholicism.

    In other words, I'm not against individual "sedevacantists" for their opinion. Their opinion doesn't make me angry. The whole idea of "sedevacantism" as an identity DOES make me angry, however. "Traditional Catholic" should be enough. The idea that "sedevacantists" need to worship only with other "sedevacantists" at special "sedevacantist" chapels.

    Every bit of good fruit I've observed over the past decades in the Traditional Movement can be 100% attributed to the core tenets of the Traditional Movement -- none of the fruit comes from declaring the See vacant, having a dart board with the Pope's face on it, etc. Sedevacantism hasn't been the solution; it hasn't solved the Crisis. It has been as impotent as the non-sedevacantists. I have no reason to hope for a solution to the Crisis to be found within the Sede camps.

    Tenets of the Traditional Movement (what defines every Traditional Catholic from 1969 - present, worldwide):

    - Complete rejection and aloofness from the Conciliar Church and the Novus Ordo, due to an unprecedented "Crisis in the Church"
    - Seeking out traditionally trained and ordained priests/bishops
    - for the pre-Vatican II (Tridentine) Mass and ALL the other sacraments, without scruple (about jurisdiction)
    - without any concern about getting "permission" from the Modernists

    These 4 points, and only these 4 points, were common to all Trads before Sedevacantism added a new "dogma". Now we have to have SedevacantistTraditionalCatholicSingles instead of just TraditionalCatholicSingles -- as if being a mere Trad somehow wasn't enough. Those duped into Sedevacantism are expected to attend special chapels apart from others, join specific Sede-focused groups, to be with specific KINDS of Trads who share your belief in that one doubtful OPINION touching on the mysterious Crisis in the Church.

    That sectarianism, that unnecessary spirit of division, is the BIGGEST thing that keeps me many leagues away from Sedevacantism.

    It's not every Sedevacantist that bothers me. Some of them aren't so sectarian; they will attend any Tridentine Mass (offered by a valid priest, etc.) But the whole milieu surrounding this particular "opinion" disgusts me. Just like a man who is tempted to sins against nature (because he was abused, etc.) incites only pity from me -- however, the "gαy lifestyle" that most gαys get involved in: the politics, marches, drug use, public debauchery, flamboyant display, in-your-face promotion of hedonism and degeneracy -- that whole milieu disgusts and angers me.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #1 on: Today at 01:15:22 AM »
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  • Good post. 
    I see bitterness and anger with these people.
    Its very sad


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 07:30:36 AM »
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  • I hold that Leo XIV is violently suspect of heresy.
    I hold the Jorge Bergoglio was not pope.  
    I hold that the conciliar popes up to and including Benedict XVI were popes.  

    Do these make me a Sedevacantist?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 08:19:12 AM »
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  • I hold that Leo XIV is violently suspect of heresy.
    I hold the Jorge Bergoglio was not pope. 
    I hold that the conciliar popes up to and including Benedict XVI were popes. 

    Do these make me a Sedevacantist?

    Those are legitimate opinions you got there, son.

    Where do you attend Mass? and would you attend Mass at an independent chapel (a Traditional Catholic a.k.a. "lifeboat" chapel) where the priest didn't share your particular opinions?
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 08:24:09 AM »
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  • Those are legitimate opinions you got there, son.

    Where do you attend Mass? and would you attend Mass at an independent chapel (a Traditional Catholic a.k.a. "lifeboat" chapel) where the priest didn't share your particular opinions?

    I attend the Masses of Fr. David Hewko.  He doesn't share my positions regarding Leo XIV and Jorge Bergoglio.  He holds them as popes.


    Online Everlast22

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 08:38:48 AM »
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  • Is because "sedevacantism" is divisive. It's adding a COMPLETELY UN-NECESSARY division to the world of Traditional Catholicism.

    In other words, I'm not against individual "sedevacantists" for their opinion. Their opinion doesn't make me angry. The whole idea of "sedevacantism" as an identity DOES make me angry, however. "Traditional Catholic" should be enough. The idea that "sedevacantists" need to worship only with other "sedevacantists" at special "sedevacantist" chapels.

    Every bit of good fruit I've observed over the past decades in the Traditional Movement can be 100% attributed to the core tenets of the Traditional Movement -- none of the fruit comes from declaring the See vacant, having a dart board with the Pope's face on it, etc. Sedevacantism hasn't been the solution; it hasn't solved the Crisis. It has been as impotent as the non-sedevacantists. I have no reason to hope for a solution to the Crisis to be found within the Sede camps.

    Tenets of the Traditional Movement (what defines every Traditional Catholic from 1969 - present, worldwide):

    - Complete rejection and aloofness from the Conciliar Church and the Novus Ordo, due to an unprecedented "Crisis in the Church"
    - Seeking out traditionally trained and ordained priests/bishops
    - for the pre-Vatican II (Tridentine) Mass and ALL the other sacraments, without scruple (about jurisdiction)
    - without any concern about getting "permission" from the Modernists

    These 4 points, and only these 4 points, were common to all Trads before Sedevacantism added a new "dogma". Now we have to have SedevacantistTraditionalCatholicSingles instead of just TraditionalCatholicSingles -- as if being a mere Trad somehow wasn't enough. Those duped into Sedevacantism are expected to attend special chapels apart from others, join specific Sede-focused groups, to be with specific KINDS of Trads who share your belief in that one doubtful OPINION touching on the mysterious Crisis in the Church.

    That sectarianism, that unnecessary spirit of division, is the BIGGEST thing that keeps me many leagues away from Sedevacantism.

    It's not every Sedevacantist that bothers me. Some of them aren't so sectarian; they will attend any Tridentine Mass (offered by a valid priest, etc.) But the whole milieu surrounding this particular "opinion" disgusts me. Just like a man who is tempted to sins against nature (because he was abused, etc.) incites only pity from me -- however, the "gαy lifestyle" that most gαys get involved in: the politics, marches, drug use, public debauchery, flamboyant display, in-your-face promotion of hedonism and degeneracy -- that whole milieu disgusts and angers me.
    Yes, and the laity crave for someone (a bishop/priest) to follow, naturally. I attend a Sede Church (necessity of sacraments) but hold your sentiments mentioned above. This is a talking point among a lot of my single guy buddies looking for trad women to marry. Can't tell you how many potential marriages were axed because of this.

    It's pretty damning when you have a sede bishop saying the una cuм mass is a mortal sin to attend. I honestly don't understand this, and it makes me somewhat angry. What is the motive?


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 09:54:12 AM »
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  • Yes- this is the only problem I have with certain Sede groups-
    That they say a Resistance TLM Mass is is invalid because of "una-cuм".

    They may have an option of saying it's illicit , but saying the entire Mass is invalid is really outside of their "wheelhouse" so to speak. 
    To me they have no authority to say a validly ordained Traditional priest is saying an invalid Tradition Mass because of naming "una cuм".


    I don't like the una cuм either, but I will go to valid una cuм Masses with validly ordained priests.

    Someone tell me where "una cuм" actually invalidates the Mass and where I can find this information, please.

    Online Everlast22

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 09:56:11 AM »
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  • Yes- this is the only problem I have with certain Sede groups-
    That they say a Resistance TLM Mass is is invalid because of "una-cuм".

    They may have an option of saying it's illicit , but saying the entire Mass is invalid is really outside of their "wheelhouse" so to speak.
    To me they have no authority to say a validly ordained Traditional priest is saying an invalid Tradition Mass because of naming "una cuм".


    I don't like the una cuм either, but I will go to valid una cuм Masses with validly ordained priests.

    Someone tell me where "una cuм" actually invalidates the Mass and where I can find this information, please.
    It doesn't, it's mainly Cekada's made up quasi-political bullshit. 


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 09:57:49 AM »
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  • It doesn't, it's mainly Cekada's made up quasi-political bullshit.
    Well, actually it's Bishop Sanborn, too

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 10:01:47 AM »
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  • It's pretty damning when you have a sede bishop saying the una cuм mass is a mortal sin to attend. I honestly don't understand this, and it makes me somewhat angry. What is the motive?
    Here's one possible motive: $$$
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Everlast22

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 10:04:14 AM »
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  • Well, actually it's Bishop Sanborn, too
    yea. sanborn as well. But these errors on their part in my opinion don't outweigh the bologna in the SSPX 2025. My 2 cents. 


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 10:36:57 AM »
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  • Yes- this is the only problem I have with certain Sede groups-
    That they say a Resistance TLM Mass is is invalid because of "una-cuм".

    Yes, Fr. Cekada's novel "Una cuм" idea is the poster boy for what I'm talking about. Actually the WORST example of what I'm complaining about here regarding the evils of the sedevacantist "movement" or "group".

    With Fr. Cekada, you have sectarianism and division taken to the Nth degree. Fr. Cekada explicitly taught that other Masses weren't morally permissible/valid, so he had a captive market. He eliminated the competition -- not de facto or by accident, but EXPLICITLY and with his very words. He didn't beat around the bush.

    Fr. Cekada was a shrewd businessman. Let's grant him that he was diabolically clever with his strategy.

    Needless to say, his idea was novel and non-existent anywhere in the world of Tradition (including those of a "sede vacante" persuasion) before him.

    Just like Luther originated "justification by Faith alone", Cekada originated the idea that Masses "una cuм Papa Nostro N." were sinful and/or invalid. Both of these men ripped off a chunk of the Church all to themselves, selfishly keeping them apart from the main body of (traditional) Catholics.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 10:54:47 AM »
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  • I understand the point of the author in your blurb, but it doesn't explain the justification why "sedevacantists" have to go off and have their own chapels, keep to themselves, avoid associating with non-sedevacantist Traditional Catholics, etc.

    It's a conclusion, yes. But not an infallible dogma. It's a private opinion at best. You don't condemn or shun others for having a different opinion from you.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #13 on: Today at 10:58:56 AM »
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  • This is incorrect. Cekada, Sanborn and everybody else got it from Fr. Guérard des Lauriers (go look up his credentials).

    Here's an explanation of the problem with assisting at una cuм masses by Fr. GdL himself:


    The Vikings actually discovered America first. Luther got his idea for "Justification by Faith alone" while taking a dump.

    No ideas are truly original. Everything is developed from earlier ideas, and earlier men.

    So it doesn't matter that this idea has "intellectual roots" in various theologian(s) before him. The fact is that Fr. Cekada owned it, developed it, applied it practically, used it maliciously to HIS advantage and to the detriment of the Traditional Movement, and made it famous.

    Virtually every discovery, every error you can point to, had a "seed" or "almost" version of it some years (decades, centuries) earlier. But it's still useful and practical to say that Ford "invented" the motor car, even though a few experimental horseless carriages existed before Ford. Ford is, practically speaking, the INVENTOR because he brought the "car" out here into the real world, practically speaking.

    P.S. If anyone else said that "assisting at Una cuм Masses is sinful" besides Fr. Cekada, then THEY were idiots as well. Credentials? I'm sure Cardinal Prevost has an impressive educational background as well. And Jorge Bergoglio for that matter. Doesn't mean they aren't firmly in error, or that their education wasn't pointless in the end.

    That is simply not what that sentence MEANS in the Canon. It does NOT mean "I am one with this pope, I am one with his sins, one with his errors..." That is INSANE. The pushers of the Una cuм nonsense are uneducated and don't know what the heck they're talking about.

    Imagine if Catholics believed that during the bad old days when several Popes were quite debauched?  Catholics would have needed to skip Mass for years on end, because they wouldn't want to be "one with" those Popes' sins and errors.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #14 on: Today at 11:07:45 AM »
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  • Una cuм-believing idiots probably think it's problematic to pray for Pope's Intentions during the last 50 years as well. They are drowning in ignorance.
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