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Author Topic: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?  (Read 2072 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2021, 11:42:08 AM »
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  • The SSPX does not conditionally ordain any Novus Ordo priests anymore, whereas before they conditionally ordained all of them. So, where the rubber meets the road, where it counts, they have changed completely.
    As DA just said, one of the complaints of "the nine" was the +ABL allowed some NO priests to work with or join the SSPX without conditional ordination.

    And I am aware of a NO priest who joined the SSPX in 2014 and was conditionally ordained.

    So not changed completely.

    At least some of the conditional ordinations in the 70s - 90s were not really based on a positive doubt, but were done for the sake of the faithful, which is a debatable reason. Not saying this is what happened, but if they realized cond. ordinations only "for the sake of the faithful" were wrong, wouldn't it be a good idea to stop doing them?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #16 on: September 02, 2021, 12:05:25 PM »
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  • Fr McFarland can say there isn’t doubt, but reading the opinions of many Trads, the sensus fidelium seems to think otherwise.
    He just said that each case has to be investigated. However in 1988, +Lefebvre wrote to a certain Mr. Wilson and he agreed with Wilson's desire to conditionally reordain novus ordo priests, and that he has done that many times. +Lefebvre also said "All sacraments from the modernists bishops or priests are doubtful now. The changes are increasing and their intentions are no more Catholic."

    This is where I am conflicted because it appears that +Lefebvre had a different view of the new rite of ordination in 1988, than in 1983.
    In our position as laymen, it's one thing for us to believe that all the NO sacraments are doubtful (or invalid - as if we could know it), and avoid them on that account. Some trads even say avoid them except in case of emergency - whatever, because we have no authority, no responsibility, no obligation and no ability to ordain anyone, we can say whatever we want in this regard.

    But the SSPX and whatever other trad groups are out there with their own bishops, simply cannot lawfully say this as if they know that all NO sacraments are automatically and certainly doubtful or invalid, and so on that account (i.e. their own word) automatically re-ordain NO priests. This they cannot do without risking sacrilege on the part of both the bishop performing the ordination and the priest being re-ordained. Because the sacrament of Holy Orders is one of the three sacraments that cannot be repeated without sacrilege, they have got to investigate each case separately. This is nothing new or earth shattering, this is nothing more than basic Catholicism.

       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #17 on: September 02, 2021, 02:48:52 PM »
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  • That's not so LT. I'm not sure where that idea even comes from but the SSPX never conditionally ordained all NO priests as if they were all automatically invalid, because they always believed the NO ordinations to be valid as long as the new rite was followed. If nothing else, they have been absolutely consistent about this since the SSPX began.
    I had never run into a Novus Ordo priest that the SSPX did not conditionally ordain. Fr. Carl Pulvermacher OFM Cap.  who was there since the beginning with Abp. L and was the founder of the Angelus magazine, told me that all the Novus Ordo priests were conditionally ordained. He did tell me the story of a Novus Ordo priest that came to the SSPX and insisted on not being conditionally ordained despite the faithful avoiding him like the plague. He would complain to Fr. Carl (Capuchins go by first name) about it and Fr. Carl couldn't understand why the man was such a wood head about it, and kept telling him too just be conditionally ordained and be done with the issue.

    These young SSPX priest are always bringing up Michael Davies book The Order of Melchisedech as proof that the new ordination rite is valid, but I do not think they have ever read the entire book. I believe they are just copying and pasting quotes taken from the book by other authors of articles. I have read the book 3 times and have marked it all up, and can tell everyone that during the whole book Michael Davies shows all the faults in the new rite and at the end when you expect him to say that it is not valid, he concludes that it is valid only because it was promulgated by a pope. Which of course begs the question. Additionally, he points out very clearly that his study involves the rite in Latin, not the vernacular translations. I doubt anyone will ever run into a Novus Ordo priest in the SSPX that was ordained in Latin. So much for the evidence for the validity of the new rite.

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #18 on: September 02, 2021, 06:56:30 PM »
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  • The Apostolic Tradition of of St Hippolytus is a very uncertain basis for NO consecrations. It appears to be some sort of Egyptian, Alexandrian treatise on what the Church should be, written by a priest of that name. It does not match what is known of liturgy in Rome, but instead is closer to Syria or Egypt, an early fragment in fact more likely had the title of 'Egyptian Church Order' or something close to that. The supposed statue of Hippolytus of Rome, which gives the Apostolic Tradition its name, is that of a woman with a man's head stuck on. The basis for it is pseudo-historical garbage. While the new text is not wholly inadequate (some refutations of it used contrived translations to make it easy to stereotype), the old old text seems far more focussed. I started watching the video in OP, but stopped as the priest seems to think that sedes can be refuted by sneering at them. Maybe it gets better, and the sound quality improves. I found it hard to watch and not convincing in what I saw.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: SSPX: Are Novus Ordo Priests & Bishops Validly Ordained?
    « Reply #19 on: September 02, 2021, 07:16:04 PM »
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  • You are aware that apparently NO priests are taken into the sspx with no conditional ordination right.  So I think to say you know sspx sacraments are all legit is a big stretch.  Further, the whole una cuм thing, how someone in good conscience can say they are in union with bergolio is beyond me.
    In union with Bergoglio or not, a priest ordained by a valid bishop is ordained.  Even if the bishop ordaining is excommunicated.  You probably wouldn't want to go to a priest you knew was a heretic, or excommunicated, but his sacraments are valid. Because the sacraments work ex opere operato for the sake of the sheep.