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Author Topic: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.  (Read 229809 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 03:43:38 PM »
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  • This just in, from their FAQ page (emphasis mine):

    Who is Hildebrand?

    Hildebrand is a celibate, male, baptized Roman Catholic, member of the Church at Rome, of adult age and free from all ecclesiastical censure. He is not a Bishop, so must be consecrated before he begins his papal ministry. His identity will be made known at the time of his consecration, so that until that time he can freely speak with Bishops and they with him, without threats of persecution or harassment. While this might not please his enemies or those who are addicted to curiosity, the pope elect has the right to conduct his own affairs and make his own personal decisions regarding his personal security. Anyone who is sane and rational can see that; and, thus, the Faithful are asked to be patient regarding the divulging of this information.


    It is ambigious as to whether he is a priest or a layman, though if he is the latter, obviously he would have to be ordained first (note that they say "consecration", only bishops are consecrated).  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 07:46:35 PM »
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  • Could also be a Brother ... as in Bugnolo.

    In his podcast, he refused to answer the question of whether he was a priest, believing that would compromise secrecy regarding his identity.  While there are many at-least-NO priests out there, the pool shrinks dramatically when you consider they would have to be Prevost-vacantists.

    Priests?  Possibly "Fr." Kramer or else there were a couple Italian "priests" who went Bergoglio-vacantist.

    Other than that, Bro B himself or else Ann Barnhardt (found to be actually a man) LOL

    Obviously just kidding, but there's a very small pool of Prevovacantists, so indicating yes or no on priest might in fact dox him, and make him a target.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 07:51:51 PM »
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  • I'm just curious about who they could find to do the consecration.  As others had pointed out, it would require finding a bishop who either believed that Hildebrand might have had a legit claim or else didn't care at all, and only a Duarte-Costa line might be among the latter 

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 07:55:08 PM »
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  • Other possibility is that they cancel the whole thing after they feel as though they had solicited enough donations despite not having found a bishop.

    Last time they pulled a fast one by just electing Bergoglio again.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #79 on: Yesterday at 07:58:37 PM »
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  • indicating yes or no on priest might in fact dox him, and make him a target.
    .

    Honestly I don't think anybody would have the slightest desire to shoot whoever this person is, assuming he exists at all, which I don't believe. I think the whole thing is a big hoax. But I also don't think the modernists or globalists or anybody similar would see any reason to shoot whoever is involved in this ridiculous dog and pony show. I mean, nobody ever tried to αssαssιnαtҽ Pope Michael, and that's about on the same level as this one. :laugh1:


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #80 on: Yesterday at 11:06:21 PM »
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  • Could also be a Brother ... as in Bugnolo.

    In his podcast, he refused to answer the question of whether he was a priest, believing that would compromise secrecy regarding his identity.  While there are many at-least-NO priests out there, the pool shrinks dramatically when you consider they would have to be Prevost-vacantists.

    Priests?  Possibly "Fr." Kramer or else there were a couple Italian "priests" who went Bergoglio-vacantist.

    Other than that, Bro B himself or else Ann Barnhardt (found to be actually a man) LOL

    Obviously just kidding, but there's a very small pool of Prevovacantists, so indicating yes or no on priest might in fact dox him, and make him a target.

    There is also the provision in canon law (Canon 378 §4 1983 CIC) that a priest must have been ordained for five years before being consecrated a bishop (epikeia, anyone?).

    Canon 330 in the 1917 CIC, per Woywod/Smith, contains the same requirement.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #81 on: Today at 08:44:38 AM »
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  • There is also the provision in canon law (Canon 378 §4 1983 CIC) that a priest must have been ordained for five years before being consecrated a bishop (epikeia, anyone?).

    Canon 330 in the 1917 CIC, per Woywod/Smith, contains the same requirement.

    Canon Law always reflects what's necessary for a well-ordered society under normal conditions, and was routinely dispensed with for any just cause.  Leo X, for instance, had been elected Pope without being a priest (was a Cardinal-deacon), and then quickly ordained, and then consecrated.

    Here's a more recent example of a man who had been a priest for less than a year before being consecrated a bishop.
    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bkorec.html

    That would be the least of my concerns regarding this papal "election".

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #82 on: Today at 08:46:33 AM »
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  • Honestly I don't think anybody would have the slightest desire to shoot whoever this person is, assuming he exists at all, which I don't believe. I think the whole thing is a big hoax. But I also don't think the modernists or globalists or anybody similar would see any reason to shoot whoever is involved in this ridiculous dog and pony show. I mean, nobody ever tried to αssαssιnαtҽ Pope Michael, and that's about on the same level as this one. :laugh1:

    Of course ... except ... put yourself in the mindset of someone who actually believes this man is the legitimate Pope after a series of usurpers had stolen the See.  Given that premise, I would be surprised if someone did NOT want to knock off the newly-elected legitimate Pope.

    Let's say, for instance, that Prevost got so bad that every Traditional Catholic finally agreed that this man is no pope, denying the Real Presence or something along those lines, and they got together in an Imperfect Council to elect a Pope whom all Traditional Catholics then accepted as the legitimate Pope.  I'd have no doubt but that the infiltrators would go after him.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #83 on: Today at 09:46:51 AM »
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  • Canon Law always reflects what's necessary for a well-ordered society under normal conditions, and was routinely dispensed with for any just cause.  Leo X, for instance, had been elected Pope without being a priest (was a Cardinal-deacon), and then quickly ordained, and then consecrated.

    Here's a more recent example of a man who had been a priest for less than a year before being consecrated a bishop.
    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/bkorec.html

    That would be the least of my concerns regarding this papal "election".
    I am guessing that this was done out of necessity during the period of Soviet hegemony in eastern Europe, and that the canon was dispensed with.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #84 on: Today at 11:39:38 AM »
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  • I am guessing that this was done out of necessity during the period of Soviet hegemony in eastern Europe, and that the canon was dispensed with.

    Of course, but even if they were in violation of Canon Law ... so what?  It wouldn't invalidate the episcopal consecration of such an individual, nor would it invalidate a papal election ... unless a prior Pope had set such a condition in one of those docuмents that lay down the requirements for the next election.  If Pope Pius XII had written ... "if the man elected had not been a priest for at lest 5 years prior to the Conclave, the election is null and void", then it would be a problem.  But there's no such condition, and it would not violate a valid consecration or valid papal election.

    IMO, by far the biggest question is ... who were these "electors"?  Now, it is true that papal election has its roots in the clergy (and faithful) of (the diocese of) Rome electing the Bishop of Rome, aka Pope, and that in the event of some breakdown where we have no Cardinals left (let's say they were having a Synod on Synodality and all got nuked), if there were any clergy of Rome left, they could elect a Pope, and that would be legitimate.  Some say it would fall then to an Imperfect Council, but I don't know that I buy this.  I believe it would be first clergy and faithful of Rome and THEN (if those were gone also) an Imperfect Council.

    But some of the problems are ... who is a clergy or faithful of the Diocese of Rome?  Is it any priest who happens to live in some (relatively-arbitrary) geographical boundary for the Diocese of Rome?  What's to prevent carpet-baggers from coming in and influencing an election in that case?  No, I would think that at least the clergy of Rome would have to be those who had been made clergy of Rome by the Bishop of Rome, incardinated into the Diocese ... which is actually what happens with Cardinals, where they are incardinated in a sense as "clergy of Rome" and then given titular churches in Rome.  So the fact that the Popes have given them these titular churches suggests that the Tradition of clergy of Rome electing the bishop of Rome is almost certainly of Apostolic Tradition and Origin, and about as close as you could have to being Divine Law.  Now, then, St. Robert Bellarmine hypothesizes that if all these were wiped out, an Imperfect Council could do it, since God would never leave the Church without a means to elect a new pope.  In the early Church, it sometimes happened that the NEIGHBORING bishops of a vacant See would come in to set up a bishop, or else a metropolitan or major archbishop type might ... if there were some problem with the clergy in that area doing it themselves (e.g. they all went Arian or apostate).  So that's where this would come in.

    But let's posit that ...

    1) the See of Rome is vacant
    2) all the Cardinals are gone (either defected, or not legitimately appointed by Anti-Popes, or heretics who are therefore ineligible)
    3) and there are 3 orthodox Catholic priests left who were priests of the Diocese

    In such a scenario, I believe those 3 priests could elect the Pope validly, legitimately.  If there were no orthodox priest left, I believe the faithful of Rome could then elect a Pope, and have a neighboring bishop come in to ordain/consecrate.  But then the sticky thing there again is who are the faithful of Rome ... those "registered" in some canonical parish prior to the emergency scenario?

    So I believe that Brother Bugnolo's principles are not entirely far-fetched.  We're far removed here from Bawden's election in the cornfields of Kansas, with his parents and former girlfriend being the majority of the electors.

    Problem ... (as per 1 to 3 above)

    1) there's no universal agreement that the See of Rome is actually vacant ... as we have many R&R types and conservative Novus Ordites clinging to Prevost as legitimate Pope
    2) it's likewise disputed whether all the Cardinals are non-Cardinals ... not only by R&R / conservative Novus Ordites, but you could add Sedeprivationists into the mix, where perhaps at least some of these Cardinals are legitimate and are not pertinacious heretics (such as, e.g., the Eastern Rite Cardinals)
    3) if the See is vacant and the Cardinals illegitimate (which would clear the way for an election) ... then there would be no more priests/clergy of Rome left to elect a Pope

    In other words, the conditions necessary for 1 and 2 above, would then preclude condition #3 from being able to happen.  At that point, we'd need an Imperfect Council ... which we're not going to get barring divine intervention.

    But if #2 isn't the case, and at least some of the Cardinals are legitimate, e.g. Eastern Rite ones who are valid bishops and not pertinacious heretics ... as Brother Bugnolo must certainly believe, since some of them go back to the Ratzinger era, AND Brother Bugnolo's previous conclave did elect Bergoglio at some point, making the Cardinals he appointed after that point legitimate also (in his mind) ... so if #2 isn't the case, then by what principle does #3 now come into play, as Brother Bugnolog claims?

    He says that simply because the last Conclave was invalid, due to a violation of the Conclave rules (too many Cardinal electors) ... this somehow entitles the clergy and faithful or Rome to proceed with an election.  Now, even that doesn't follow, since some theologians hold that a technically-invalid conclave would be sanated by a "Universal Acceptance".  Now, while I don't agree with that, good luck convincing everyone that it isn't the case.

    So given all these what-ifs, disagreements, etc. ... the confusion and fog around such a thing would render it impossible for such a Conclave (even if technically valid, where Bugnolo is correct about every conclusion he's made per the above) ... there would remain so much disagreement, non-acceptance, etc. ... that his Conclave could not produce anything more than a papa dubius at best, meaning that we're still in the same boat and he's solved nothing.

    Now, if he's right, perhaps God would provide miraculous signs of his having approved the election ... and win over the entire Catholic world, but even that's sketchy, as Clemente Dominguez had preternatural abilities also and the devil can fake miracles.

    There's also a bit of a conundrum for Brother Bugnolo.  According to his thesis, there was a time (before they elected him) that Bergoglio was not a valid Pope.  That would mean that the Cardinals whom he appointed during that time period would not be legitimate, and that would put the total number of electors under the number specified ... and so the Conclave would not have been invalidated on those grounds.  I'll look it up in a minute here, but I'm also certain that's the case.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #85 on: Today at 11:56:06 AM »
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  • So, this question needs to be asked of Brother Bugnolo ...

    Bergoglio was "elected" originally on March 13, 2013, but then Bugnolo conclave that elected him didn't occur until January 30, 2023.

    During that time, Bergoglio had appointed 142 Cardinals (of the total 163).  This means that nearly all the 131 electors in the 2025 Prevostian Conclave were illegitimate by his own standards.  That would then certainly have put the total number of ACTUAL Cardinals who participated in the 2025 Conclave well under the 120 limit ... and exceeding that limit is what he uses to claim that Prevost's election was not valid).


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #86 on: Today at 11:59:19 AM »
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  • Something peculiar happened as I was interrogating ChatGPT about this scenario.  I asked basically how many Cardinals appointed by Bergoglio voted in the 2025 Conclave that elected Prevost as Leo XIV.  Here's what ChatGPT originally said, and I had to provide a link to "correct" it, but it was undoubtedly correct the first time LOL.

    I'm going to save this gem here ... :laugh1:


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Bennyvacantists have a new pope.
    « Reply #87 on: Today at 03:05:00 PM »
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  • Of course, the argument that the Conclave that elected Prevost was invalid due to exceeding the number of voting Cardinals is ... utterly ridiculous and stupid.

    Assuming that Bergoglio was a Pope, and Brother Bugnolo and company elected him to be one ... Popes ARE NOT AND CANNOT BE BOUND BY ANY LAW SHORT OF DIVINE LAW.  So, whether it's Canon Law or Wojtyla the Great's Universi Domonici Gregis ... subsequent Popes cannot be bound by the law.  It's not that they can change the law or dispense themselves from the law ... it's that they are not subject to it or bound by it (again, unless something is Divine Law or a close derivative, which the # of Cardinals is not even close to being).

    If a legitimate Pope wanted to appoint 300 Voting Cardinals, he is perfectly entitled to do so, and even if he doesn't "change" the law, his ignoring of it is perfectly permissible, and in appointing 133 (or 131 after 2 dropped out due to health) he's IMPLICITLY making know the will of the Supreme Lawgiver in the Church.  In the monarchical structure of the Catholic Church, the will of the Supreme Legislator being made known  and promulgated suffices to create law.  It need not be officially set forth in any docuмent, explicitly, in so many words.

    I had an argument on X with this Eastern Rite SV Priest who was at one time affiliated with Bishop Dolan, and so he's anti-sedeprivationist.  So he made this argument from Canon Law that "priests are selected by the Roman Pontiff" to serve as Cardinals, the point being that these men who are currently Cardinals are not valid Cardinals even according to law (materially) because they're doubtfully valid (or outright invalid) as priests, i.e. are laymen.  That's nonsense because, the Canon Law is worded very specifically in this case in the present passive "priests are selected by the Roman Pontiff", not priests MUST BE selected by the Roman Pontiff.  That would absurd and nonsensical, since there's nothing of the sort that MUST BE done by any Roman Pontiff, as the law cannot bind him, and the law is written in such as way as to recognize this by merely being a description of the current practice.  At the time of the Council of Trent, there was no such requirement, and it was only a Pope some time later (forget which one) who instituted the practice of choosing only clerics at least in Minor Orders, who had been in those Orders for at least 5 years, and finally by 1917 it was Priests (generally), though practically all of them were at least Bishops.  But a Pope can appoint ANYONE HE WANTS to regardless of Canon Law, since he is not bound by it.  Pope Pius XII could have gotten up any given morning and designated "Mr. John Smith" from Peioria, Illinois to be a "Voting Cardinal", and his appointment would make it so, regardless of what "Canon Law" says.

    So Begoglio's intention to appoint 133 Voting Cardinals ... made it so.

    In fact, even Wojtyla's UDG contains a statement that permits automatic override, where it says that an appointment by a Pope:
    Quote
    A Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church who has been created and published in a consistory has, by that very fact, the right to elect the Pope.

    Of course, even this provision can be overridden by a (legitimate) Pope, where he could make someone a Cardinal but then say "this one can't vote".  In fact, Bergoglio did exactly that for this one "Cardinal" Becciu, who had been implicated in some financial scandal ... where Beccius had his voting rights stripped, but nevertheless retained the title of Cardinal.  Popes can do whatever they want.