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Author Topic: The Attack on Ultramontanism  (Read 3791 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2021, 01:51:04 PM »
Stubborn,

Do you agree that husband and wife are one, yet distinct?

Holy Church is the Mystical Body of Christ; He is the (presently-invisible) Head thereof.  The Roman Pontiff is the visible head.

Holy Church is the Immaculate Spouse of Christ, not Christ Himself; similarly, my wife and I are two in one flesh, but we are not the exact same thing/person/etc.

If, as you assert, Christ IS the Church, please educate us on what the role of the Holy Ghost is?  Why is the Third Person even involved, if the Second Person IS the Church?  Perhaps Christ IS the Holy Ghost?
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2021, 02:42:51 PM »
Quote from: Marion on August 04, 2021, 01:45:33 PM
You can't just ignore the facts:

1.) We're forced to obey God.
2.) We're forced to obey the Vatican Council.
3.) Given 2.) we're forced to obey the Pope. (Reply #33)

All these are always true. If I say: There is a Pope I can't obey, then I contradict 3.)
Given #3 referencing reply 33, V1 teaches that as subjects of the pope, we are bound to submit to the pope in *true obedience.*  V1 does not say "obedience", nor does it say blind obedience, V1 specifically teaches that as his subordinates, it is our duty to obey the pope with *true obedience*.

You've created a conundrum by eliminating "true obedience" and replacing it with either just plain old simple "obedience" or blind obedience, not sure which, perhaps both, I don't know.   

Either way, our true obedience is owed to him in matters concerning faith and morals and regarding the disciplines/government of the Church - which because the conciliar popes are all hell bent on destroying the Church, in true obedience we cannot obey.

We would only be contradicting if the pope wanted to implement something Catholic or something not anti-Catholic into the faith/morals/discipline/government of the true Church but we rejected it, other than that, we do not and can never contradict the teaching by exercising and adhering to true obedience.



 


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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2021, 02:54:42 PM »
Quote from: Marion on August 04, 2021, 01:39:04 PM
Sure, the Church is (not Christ) but the Mystical Body of Christ. That's undisputed.

The encyclical Mystici corporis says that Christ is the Head and the Church is the Body. The Body does not include the Head. In #53 Pius says that "Christ in a certain sense lives in the Church, that she is, as it were, another Christ". But: not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is another Christ". And this must be understood correctly:

Not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is a most faithful image of Christ".
The mystical body of Christ, is Christ, the whole Christ, head and all. It's been a long day so if you won't, I will find more authoritative sources in the morning.

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2021, 02:56:53 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 04, 2021, 01:45:47 PM
So, what is it?  Is the undisputed Head thereof also the Head of the Catholic Church?  If so, HOW is such an absurdity possible?

Thank you in advance for your unwavering simplicity, clarity and honesty.
It's the anti-Catholic church. Your question I answered in another thread a few days ago.......
Quote
I said:
The link should start right at the mark, otherwise listen for about 2 minutes from about the 1:13:39 mark.

https://youtu.be/yFfnTdlrGK4?t=4419

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2021, 03:12:05 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 04, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Stubborn,

Do you agree that husband and wife are one, yet distinct?

Holy Church is the Mystical Body of Christ; He is the (presently-invisible) Head thereof.  The Roman Pontiff is the visible head.

Holy Church is the Immaculate Spouse of Christ, not Christ Himself; similarly, my wife and I are two in one flesh, but we are not the exact same thing/person/etc.

If, as you assert, Christ IS the Church, please educate us on what the role of the Holy Ghost is?  Why is the Third Person even involved, if the Second Person IS the Church?  Perhaps Christ IS the Holy Ghost?
I've been in front of this screen for +11 hours, I'm done for the day but will answer in the morning or tomorrow as I am able to.
The quick answer is that Holy Ghost's is the sanctifyer. The pope is the visible head, and is he going to get it when he meets Our Lord, always reminds me of...... "Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord." - Jer 23:1-2
 
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