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Author Topic: The Attack on Ultramontanism  (Read 3793 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2021, 01:15:21 PM »
Look at the whole text, Pius XII does not say "Christ, which is the Church", but "the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church". The text of the encyclical explains it: Christ is the Head, while the Church is the Body.
Pius XII Humani Generis
27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

I could post more but have to do a little work at the moment

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2021, 01:22:26 PM »
You write as if you had forgotten all we've been talking about in the past hours. Wasting our time.
You said there was a contradiction, and said: "Hence, it must be possible to obey God and obey any legitimate Pope at the same time".
There is no contradiction when the pope does not want us to do something that offends God. It is not a contradiction to not obey the pope if it offends God, it is simply not possible to obey the pope in those instances. 


Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2021, 01:39:04 PM »
Pius XII Humani Generis
27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

I could post more but have to do a little work at the moment

Sure, the Church is (not Christ) but the Mystical Body of Christ. That's undisputed.

The encyclical Mystici corporis says that Christ is the Head and the Church is the Body. The Body does not include the Head. In #53 Pius says that "Christ in a certain sense lives in the Church, that she is, as it were, another Christ". But: not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is another Christ". And this must be understood correctly:

Quote
54. Nevertheless this most noble title of the Church must not be so understood as if that ineffable bond by which the Son of God assumed a definite human nature belongs to the universal Church; but it consists in this, that our Savior shares prerogatives peculiarly His own with the Church in such a way that she may portray, in her whole life, both exterior and interior, a most faithful image of Christ. For in virtue of the juridical mission by which our Divine Redeemer sent His Apostles into the world, as He had been sent by the Father, it is He who through the Church baptizes, teaches, rules, looses, binds, offers, sacrifices.

Not "the Church is Christ", rather "the Church is a most faithful image of Christ".

Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2021, 01:45:33 PM »
You said there was a contradiction, and said: "Hence, it must be possible to obey God and obey any legitimate Pope at the same time".

There is no contradiction when the pope does not want us to do something that offends God. It is not a contradiction to not obey the pope if it offends God, it is simply not possible to obey the pope in those instances.

You can't just ignore the facts:

1.) We're forced to obey God.
2.) We're forced to obey the Vatican Council.
3.) Given 2.) we're forced to obey the Pope. (Reply #33)

All these are always true. If I say: There is a Pope I can't obey, then I contradict 3.)

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: The Attack on Ultramontanism
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2021, 01:45:47 PM »
The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church.

So, what is it?  Is the undisputed Head thereof also the Head of the Catholic Church?  If so, HOW is such an absurdity possible?

Thank you in advance for your unwavering simplicity, clarity and honesty.