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Offline gladius_veritatis

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The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
« on: June 16, 2009, 05:22:07 AM »
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  • Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

    Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

    Objection 2. Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (Question 65, Article 1). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.

    Objection 3. Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.

    On the contrary, on Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of Baptisms," the gloss says: "He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood."

    I answer that, As stated above (Question 62, Article 5), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

    Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Question 60, Article 1), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.

    Reply to Objection 3. Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, "the Deluge" was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then "a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulgate: 'by water'," according to 1 Peter 3:20. He also mentions "the crossing of the Red Sea": which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 10:2) that "all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea." And again he mentions "the various washings which were customary under the Old Law," which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also "the Baptism of John," which prepared the way for our Baptism.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 05:22:38 AM »
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  • Article 12. Whether the Baptism of Blood is the most excellent of these?

    Objection 1. It seems that the Baptism of Blood is not the most excellent of these three. For the Baptism of Water impresses a character; which the Baptism of Blood cannot do. Therefore the Baptism of Blood is not more excellent than the Baptism of Water.

    Objection 2. Further, the Baptism of Blood is of no avail without the Baptism of the Spirit, which is by charity; for it is written (1 Corinthians 13:3): "If I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." But the Baptism of the Spirit avails without the Baptism of Blood; for not only the martyrs are saved. Therefore the Baptism of Blood is not the most excellent.

    Objection 3. Further, just as the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which, as stated above (Article 11), the Baptism of Blood corresponds, so Christ's Passion derives its efficacy from the Holy Ghost, according to Hebrews 9:14: "The Blood of Christ, Who by the Holy Ghost offered Himself unspotted unto God, shall cleanse our conscience from dead works," etc. Therefore the Baptism of the Spirit is more excellent than the Baptism of Blood. Therefore the Baptism of Blood is not the most excellent.

    On the contrary, Augustine (Ad Fortunatum) speaking of the comparison between Baptisms says: "The newly baptized confesses his faith in the presence of the priest: the martyr in the presence of the persecutor. The former is sprinkled with water, after he has confessed; the latter with his blood. The former receives the Holy Ghost by the imposition of the bishop's hands; the latter is made the temple of the Holy Ghost."

    I answer that, As stated above (Article 11), the shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated (11). These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desire. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act. In like manner, too, the power of the Holy Ghost acts in the Baptism of Water through a certain hidden power. in the Baptism of Repentance by moving the heart; but in the Baptism of Blood by the highest degree of fervor of dilection and love, according to John 15:13: "Greater love than this no man hath that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    Reply to Objection 1. A character is both reality and a sacrament. And we do not say that the Baptism of Blood is more excellent, considering the nature of a sacrament; but considering the sacramental effect.

    Reply to Objection 2. The shedding of blood is not in the nature of a Baptism if it be without charity. Hence it is clear that the Baptism of Blood includes the Baptism of the Spirit, but not conversely. And from this it is proved to be more perfect.

    Reply to Objection 3. The Baptism owes its pre-eminence not only to Christ's Passion, but also to the Holy Ghost, as stated above.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 05:33:43 AM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII said all seminarians should go to their schooling with TWO books in hand: the Summa Theologiae and the Roman Catechism (CoTrent).
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    Offline CM

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 01:42:20 AM »
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  • God the Holy Ghost, through Pope Pius IX, said that sacraments are necessary for salvation.  St. Thomas Aquinas said that only Baptism in Water is a sacrament.

    I'll stick with God the Holy Ghost.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 01:49:05 AM »
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  • You are sticking with your own faulty interpretation, limiting the power of the Almighty to the use of material things that He created.  Do you also reject the teachings about spiritual communions and perfect contrition?  These are ways to receive the grace of the sacrament without receiving the sacrament itself.

    Do not worry, I have been through this a thousand times with men more "learned" and hard-headed than you - and I know it never gets anywhere.  Good day.
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    Offline CM

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #5 on: June 19, 2009, 01:52:29 AM »
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  • Sorry GV, but I'm not the one with the faulty interpretation.

    Offline CM

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 01:55:23 AM »
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  • You limit the power of the Almighty by implying that he might let one of the elect slip through His fingers unbaptized, as though He is not in control.
    And of course I do not deny the teachings on perfect contrition.  They are explicitly spelled out in Trent, unlike the so-called teaching that you are attempting to foist on others, which is based on your own fallacious interpretation, which goes directly against the clear and concise words of the decree and Scripture.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #7 on: June 19, 2009, 03:45:25 AM »
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  • My daddy can beat up your daddy, blah, blah...
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    Offline Raoul76

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #8 on: June 19, 2009, 09:15:36 PM »
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  • It's strange how tempting it is to pick fights with them, isn't it gladius?

    It becomes almost addictive.  The way a sadomasochistic unhealthy relationship is addictive.

    I just realized you were Eamon Shea, by the way.  I remember your posts from Bellarmine Forums when I was an unbaptized pagan lurker, on the way to becoming Catholic and still trying to decide where I stood on all of this.  ( The light has since struck and in a big way ).  I must have read every post on that board three or four times over.  

    You actually cleared up a lot of my fears on the jurisdiction issue when you came on and quoted Bishop Pivarunas, who cited the Great Western Schism and another three-year vacancy of the Holy See previous to that.  I remember you would often come on and talk clear, concise sense.  But as was the tendency on that board, John Lane then went on the attack and obfuscated everything with his "back to the books" mantra.  I like him, but every thread on that board ended the same way, in dissipated, sullen confusion.

    I've been meaning to ask, what was the source of the contention between you and Father Cekada?  Father Cekada was one of my heroes but that letter where he calls you "mentally ill," whether true or not -- I've seen no evidence of it -- struck me as un-priestlike.  He seems to relish trash-talk and invective more than is seemly for a man of the cloth.
    As I was a new convert when posting here, my posts are often full of error, even unwitting heresy and rash judgment, all of which I renounce, and all my writings are best avoided -- MDLS

    Offline CM

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    The Angelic Doctor speaks on Baptism
    « Reply #9 on: June 19, 2009, 11:57:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    My daddy can beat up your daddy, blah, blah...


    What the heck is this?  A game?

     

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