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Author Topic: The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.  (Read 12260 times)

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Offline Gregory I

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The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
« on: February 11, 2012, 01:56:25 AM »
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  • Fr. Cekada's Arguments were just demolished.

    Often, this is quoted as the 1968 rite of consecrating a bishop:

    "So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name."

    Guess what?

    That is NOT THE ENTIRE PRAYER OF CONSECRATION!

    This is what Paul VI said: "the form [of ordination] consists in the words of the consecratory prayer, OF WHICH the following BELONG TO the essence and are consequently required for validity..."

    So, this is the PRINCIPLE PART that theo other co-consecrators all intone together, but it is by no means the END of the Consecration!

    The Consecration in FULL is this:

    Prayer of Consecration

    26.  Next the principal consecrator, with his hands extended over the bishop-elect, sings the prayer of consecration or says it aloud:

    God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they came to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church.

    From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.

        The following part of the prayer is recited by all the consecrating bishops, with hands joined:

    So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.


        Then the principal consecrator continues alone.

    Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop. May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles. May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen.


    27.  After the prayer of consecration, the deacons remove the Book of the Gospels which they have been holding above the head of the new bishop.  One of them hold the book until it is given to the bishop.  The principal consecrator and the consecrating bishops, wearing their miters, sit.

    Sorry guys. I can no longer consider this rite invalid, at least not materially.

    The prayer of consecration itself, in its ENTIRETY clearly and univocally denotes the grace of the holy spirit, that this grace is the gift of the high priesthood, and that the rank of bishop is being conferred, with some of the particular powers of bishops mentioned: "Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to... assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles"

    This, for me is earth shattering. There is absolutely no doubt as to the intention here. I agree Paul VI shouldn't have changed it, but I mean, LOOK. It clearly spells out the Role of a Catholic Bishop.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline Sigismund

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 09:12:34 AM »
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  • Well done.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline s2srea

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 09:20:13 AM »
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  • Thanks Gregory. I'm sort of at that point where I'm just trying to stay safe as a Catholic, and receive those sacraments which I 'know' to be valid.

    Offline Santo Subito

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    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 10:34:23 AM »
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  • Is there a comprehensive comparative study that analyzes the Rite of Consecration of a Bishop, or of any other Ordination or Consecration, as found in the Roman Pontifical with the corresponding N. O. rites, each in their entirety? I think that would be very beneficial, if only to have the opportunity to have the Latin texts and translations side by side in order to attain to a greater clarity in these matters.

    For reference, here is Rev. Fr. Joseph Henry McMahon's translation of the Rites for the Consecration of a Bishop: Ordo Consecrationis Electi in Episcopum juxta Pontificale Romanum. The Order Followed in the Consecration of a Bishop, according to the Roman Pontifical. (New York: The Cathedral Library Association, 1910):


    http://www.archive.org/details/orderfollowedinc00cath
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.


    Offline Gregory I

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #5 on: February 11, 2012, 11:27:25 AM »
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  • SSPX has a study that shows the new rite is practically verbatim the 3rd century ordination rite of st. Hippolytus. Same phrase "Governing spirit."
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Gregory I

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #6 on: February 11, 2012, 11:28:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Thanks Gregory. I'm sort of at that point where I'm just trying to stay safe as a Catholic, and receive those sacraments which I 'know' to be valid.


    I agree, if you doubt don't risk it. SSPX or other...
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline Caminus

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #7 on: February 11, 2012, 11:39:06 AM »
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  • Gregory, I would like to commend your honesty and integrity.  It is truly a breath of fresh air to find a man who values truth over an unfounded, prejudicial, emotional opinion, while having the bravery to renounce his error, even if it does injury to a very dear conception of reality or some other opinion.  You are being reasonable.  And you also hit on another important distinction insofar as conceding validity in no way implies approval of the reforms.  


    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 01:30:18 PM »
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  • Gregory I, not so quick. I do like you, but first it was your earth-shattering personal interpretation of BoD that I feel has started you on the trend toward Modernism. Be careful please.

    If you are going to go off to become a Novus Ordo supporter and appease the anti-sedes here (as is already being shown), at least do the proper research on the Consecratory prayers for ordaining Bishops and their origin. Don't chop-shop whatever the Dimonds have said on this because they don't paint the whole picture many times on many issues regarding changes with Vatican II and Paul VI's heretical ideas. Its not so much what he added, but what was removed from the original rites that many neglect to realize nor will notice have been removed in the first place.

    Here are some words from the book "The Destruction of the Christian Tradition", courtesy of Rama Coomaraswamy. I have only jumped to a certain part, so please go google the book up or buy it for yourself for a better understanding and showcase of evidence. I am not a theologian, but I know whats right when I see it. And I also know to concede when I am in error; but here I am not in error as far as I have concluded.

    Note: Coomaraswamy analyzed the ENTIRE consecratory text from the supposed and historically incomplete source text that Paul VI adopted from the "Apostolic Tradtion of Hippolytus  AND then he read the ENTIRE consecratory text of the New Rite of Ordination of Paul VI. Many traditional Catholics have just read a portion of the text, as you , Gregory I, have quoted in your original post... yet that is not true with Coomaraswamy's analysis of it.


    --------------------------------------

    THE RESULT OF THESE CHANGES IS THE PROTESTANTIZING OF THE ORDINAL

    "Clearly, almost every reference to a specifically Catholic understanding of the episcopate has been deleted from the post-Conciliar rite. Included in these deletions are his function of ordaining priests, confirming, and his use of the "Keys". Admittingly the term "bishop" is retained, but outside the essential form, and in such a way as would in no way offend our Protestant brethren. As such there is no positive signifcatio ex adjunctis, but rather a negative one. With this in mind, let us consider some of the statements of Leo XIII in his Apostolicae curae that irreformably declared Anglican Orders "null and void."

    Quote
    In vain has help been recently sought from the plea of the validity of Anglican Orders from the other prayers of the same Ordinal. For, to put aside other reasons which show this to be insufficient for the purpose of the Anglican rite, let this argument suffice for all. From them has been deliberately removed whatever sets forth the dignity and office of the priesthood of the Catholic rite. That "form" consequently cannot be considered apt or sufficient for the sacrament which omits what it ought essentially to signify... The same holds good of Episcopal consecration... Nor is anything gained by quoting the prayer of the preface, 'Almightly God,' since it, in like manner, has been stripped of the words which denote the summum sacerdotium... The episcopate undoubtedly, by the institution of Christ, most truly belongs to the sacrament of Orders and constitutes the sacerdotium in the highest degree, namely that which by the teaching of the Holy Fathers and our liturgical customs is called the summum sacerdotium, sacri ministerii summa. So it comes to pass that, as the sacrament of Orders and the true sacerdotium of Christ were utterly eliminated from the Anglican rite, and hence the sacerdotium is in no wise conferred truly and validly in the Episcopal consecration of the same rite, for the same reason, therefore, the episcopate can in no wise be truly and validly conferred by it and this the more so because among the first duties of the episcopate is that of ordaining ministers for the Holy Eucharist and sacrifice.


         Michael Davies, despite his dubious conclusion in The Order of Melchisedech that the new ordination rite is unquestionably valid, provides us with all the necessary evidence required to state that the intention of Paul VI was to make the new ordination rites acceptable to Protestants. He also provides us with the evidence that Paul VI's Ordinal was created with the help of the same henchmen that assisted in creating the Novus Ordo Missae -- Archbp. Bugnini and the six heterodox (Protestant) "consultants." Francis Clark also stresses Paul VI's ecuмenical intent. Indeed, he goes so far as to parallel it with Cranmer's intent in creating the Edwardian (Anglican) rite, namely that of destroying the sacerdotal character of Orders. He considers the Cranmerian result invalid, but that of the post-Conciliar Church as legitimate because it derives from a Pope.
         Let the import of such an intent be clear. Protestants deny the sacramental character of Orders, and any attempt to create a rite that would satisfy them must resort to both ambiguity and deliberate obfuscation of doctrine. If Michael Davies' contention is correct, and I believe it is, Paul VI had no choice but to deliberately delete every reference to a specifically Catholic characterization of the episcopacy.


    --------------------------------------------------

    A real ordination of Bishops... ABL did not, in his wisdom, use the New Rite of Ordination. Why?



    Remember who Paul VI was... a man who believed the United Nations could save the world and bring it peace.... a man who approved of communist Cuba and its intent of achieving a 'new order' and a 'new man' because Cuba conformed to his own ideals .... a man who appeased heretics at the convening of the satanic robber council known as Vatican II by including them directly in manipulating consecratory rites and the Mass, the holy Liturgy.

    I will never forget who my leader is... it is Jesus Christ. Gregory I, I hope you do not forget also.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 01:36:16 PM »
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  • Some more from Coomaraswamy going particularly on points brought up in the OP.


    "..There is a vast difference between 'ordaining priests' and 'assigning ministries.' Also deleted are references to his function of protecting the Church against heresy. The post-Conciliar "bishop" is to "loose every bond" but not "to loose and bind, to invest and divest, as well as to excommunicate." Retained, however, are two important words, that of "bishop" and "high priest," but they are placed outside the "essential" form. Moreover, one can seriously question whether the terms "bishop" and "high priest" can be understood in the Catholic sense of the words. In view of any proper indication in the significatio ex adjunctis, one can be permitted to doubt it."

    Offline Raoul76

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 01:48:01 PM »
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  • I don't have time right now but I know Sodalitum, the sedeprivationist website, has much information about this, I'll take a look later on today.  

    The principal consecrator says:

    Quote
    "So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit..."


    This is the most important part of the Rite, this is where the principal consecrator stretches his hand over the bishop-to-be.  The episcopal consecration has to signify that the power given to this new bishop is from God.  Maybe from Jesus Christ?  But "governing spirit" could mean anything; it could mean the devil.  


    The next part is where everyone says together:

    Quote

    "Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop. May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles. May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen.


    Okay...  Here, the principal consecrator may be speaking, but he does not have his hand over the bishop-to-be, thus this is not really where the power is given.
    So it looks to me like this is a big feint, just like everything in VII.

    Again, "Father" is vague, and this is all in the past tense, "YOU HAVE CHOSEN."  But for this bishop to have really been chosen, it has to be shown that his power comes from God, being passed down to him from the consecrating bishop at that same moment when his hand was extended over him...  That is how it seems to me anyway, I admit I need to do more research.  Anyway, it wasn't shown.  The "power" he has here comes from the "governing Spirit" which means nothing.  Power is not given, I am fairly confident, from the consecrating bishop and all the others standing around and praying.  There needs to be that extended hand, a formal moment where the power is passed down.  

    Again, this is just my hunch, I will do more research later, but I'm pretty sure I'm right - it's just common sense.  That is the moment that signifies what is occurring.  No one is made a bishop by other bishops just standing around and praying.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline s2srea

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 06:08:00 PM »
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  • Like I've said before, this all sounds good, and there are theologians far greater than us who have argued both sides. I'll caution on the side of Tradition, which has proven not to be wrong.

    Offline Jim

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 09:16:34 PM »
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  • There are arguments on both sides, but ultimately, on the Holy See and a future Pope will ever authoritatively end the debate.

    Offline Caminus

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #13 on: February 11, 2012, 10:21:49 PM »
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  • Positing a purely negative doubt is not even an argument at all.  

    Offline Gregory I

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #14 on: February 11, 2012, 11:49:31 PM »
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  • My goal is not to bash sedes, nor is it to be rash or emotional or unprayerful in my decision making. Nishant can attest to the fact that my Change of opinion on BOD was the result of prayer: I asked Christ to please reveal to me the true position. I told him I wish to know him more through not putting any obstacle in the way of truth.

    My heart was then converted toward the traditional understanding of BOD. I again asked Christ:

    "Well, it seems that I have found several very good arguments to not be feeneyite, and it seems you have put them in my way. Please confirm for me whether or not I should be a sedevacantist."

    Can you imagine if EVERYONE here submitted their personal opinions to the will of God without reserve? Not that I am perfect or have even done that properly. But I then had about 8 guys come to my house for a bachelor party from an FSSP parish...

    And I was blown away. I offered every argument I know, and the one who was a trained lawyer FORCED me to look at my arguments...and they crumbled as well.

    I first looked at this issue of the 1968 rite: The consecratory prayer makes clear the fullness of the power of order.

    Besides, the whole issue is based on a farce: The kind of fullness of expression and univocality that people like Fr. Cekada ask for isn't present in the OTHER rites of ordination codified by Pius XII!

    For example, the ordination of a deacon refers to the Holy spirit being given for the purpose of ministry. Wow, that's specific. The Diaconal, Priestly or Episcopal? It doesn't indicate there.

    Same with the Priesthood. Sure it says priest, but what KIND of priest? How is it different from say, a Mormon Priest?

    Now, you will probably say: Well, it's a Catholic Rite, so OBVIOUSLY it's a catholic priest. And that is the point. There is an appropriate amount of assumption that is present even in the old rite. In addition, the context itself, both before and after the PRINCIPLE PART of the SINGLE Consecratory prayer makes clear what is happening.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila