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Author Topic: The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.  (Read 13169 times)

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Offline Pepsuber

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The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2012, 10:08:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Pepsuber
    Quote from: SJB
    What is a denial of an ex cathedra pronouncement?

    Do you think that the Syllabus is ex cathedra?


    Yes.


    Which of those categories do you think the Syllabus falls into?

    Offline Pepsuber

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #61 on: February 17, 2012, 10:14:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: katholikos
    I have no idea how anyone could say that Fr. Cekada argues that Benedict XVI isn't the Pope because he's not a valid bishop.

    Because that is one of the arguments he's made.
    http://www.stjosephschurch.net/cekada.htm


    Offline Canute

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #62 on: February 18, 2012, 07:36:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pepsuber
    Quote from: katholikos
    I have no idea how anyone could say that Fr. Cekada argues that Benedict XVI isn't the Pope because he's not a valid bishop.

    Because that is one of the arguments he's made.
    http://www.stjosephschurch.net/cekada.htm

    I don't see where in the article Father Cekada really argues this.

    Quote from: Fr. Cekada
    Joseph Ratzinger had been consecrated with the new rite on May 28, 1977. Was he, apart from the question of whether or not he is a true pope, even a real bishop?
    .....
    How could SSPX’s superiors sell traditionalists on the idea of uniting themselves to a pope who may not even be a real bishop?

    All that this seems to say is that it would be an odd situation if the Bishop of Rome were not a validly consecrated bishop.

    Offline katholikos

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #63 on: February 18, 2012, 07:57:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pepsuber
    Quote from: katholikos
    I have no idea how anyone could say that Fr. Cekada argues that Benedict XVI isn't the Pope because he's not a valid bishop.

    Because that is one of the arguments he's made.
    http://www.stjosephschurch.net/cekada.htm


    Of course it is an argument against Benedict XVI that he cannot be the Bishop of Rome if he's not a bishop, but that is not the argument against his claim to the papacy. (Fr. Cekada has been a sedevacantist since the 70s, so one can hardly say he's basing his position on the 1968 rite of episcopal consecration.)

    A succinct summary of why the Novus Ordo claiminats to the papacy cannot be true Popes is found in "Traditionalists, Infallibility, and the Pope" (1995, revised 2006):

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/TradsInfall.pdf

    I just want to make sure no one will give the impression that if somehow the 1968 rite of episcopal consecration could be presumed valid, that then it follows that Benedict XVI is the Pope. Absolutely not.

    Offline SJB

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #64 on: February 18, 2012, 07:39:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Fr. Cekada
    How could SSPX’s superiors sell traditionalists on the idea of uniting themselves to a pope who may not even be a real bishop?


    Sounds like an argument to me, Canute.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Caminus

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #65 on: February 19, 2012, 12:44:37 AM »
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  • SJB, there is such a thing as ecclesiastical heresy.  Additionally, a man can sin against the virute of faith whilst not incurring the censure of heresy.  Simply because a proposition is infallibly defined, it does not follow that the contrary is heresy.  Remember those charts that were posted?  At least three of the censures indicated a mortal sin against faith while not attaining to the level of heresy.  Thus a prelate can be faithless without being an heretic.    

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #66 on: February 19, 2012, 04:52:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    SJB, there is such a thing as ecclesiastical heresy.  Additionally, a man can sin against the virute of faith whilst not incurring the censure of heresy.  Simply because a proposition is infallibly defined, it does not follow that the contrary is heresy.  Remember those charts that were posted?  At least three of the censures indicated a mortal sin against faith while not attaining to the level of heresy.  Thus a prelate can be faithless without being an heretic.    


    Do you mean ecclesiastical faith?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #67 on: February 19, 2012, 08:07:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cartechini
    b) Theological Note:  Doctrine of ecclesiastical faith
     
    Equivalent term:  De fide ecclesiastica definita
     
    Explanation:  A truth not directly revealed by God but closely connected with Divine revelation and infallibly proposed by the Magisterium.
     
    Example:  The lawfulness of communion under one kind.

    Censure attached to contradictory proposition:  Heresy against ecclesiastical faith.
     
    Effects of denial:  Mortal sin directly against faith, and, if publicly professed, automatic excommunication and forfeiture of membership of Church.
     
    Remarks:  It is a dogma that the Church's infallibility extends to truths in this sphere, so one who denies them denies implicitly a dogma or Divine faith.
     
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Sigismund

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #68 on: February 20, 2012, 10:14:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    SJB, there is such a thing as ecclesiastical heresy.  Additionally, a man can sin against the virute of faith whilst not incurring the censure of heresy.  Simply because a proposition is infallibly defined, it does not follow that the contrary is heresy.  Remember those charts that were posted?  At least three of the censures indicated a mortal sin against faith while not attaining to the level of heresy.  Thus a prelate can be faithless without being an heretic.    


    Can you cite an example of an infallibly defined proposition the opposite of which would not be a heresy?
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #69 on: February 20, 2012, 12:02:31 PM »
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  • "From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, an "insanity,"2 viz., that "liberty of conscience and worship is each man's personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way." But, while they rashly affirm this, they do not think and consider that they are preaching "liberty of perdition;"3 and that "if human arguments are always allowed free room for discussion, there will never be wanting men who will dare to resist truth, and to trust in the flowing speech of human wisdom; whereas we know, from the very teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, how carefully Christian faith and wisdom should avoid this most injurious babbling."

    "Therefore, by our Apostolic authority, we reprobate, proscribe, and condemn all the singular and evil opinions and doctrines severally mentioned in this letter, and will and command that they be thoroughly held by all children of the Catholic Church as reprobated, proscribed and condemned." Pope Pius IX, Quanta Cura.

    This infallibly condemned error(s), and consequently the opposite truth(s) equally infallibly declared, does not amount to heresy, which is a direct denial of a divinely revealed truth as proposed by the Church for belief by Catholics.  

     

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #70 on: February 20, 2012, 12:34:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cartechini
    b) Theological Note:  Doctrine of ecclesiastical faith
     
    Equivalent term:  De fide ecclesiastica definita
     
    Explanation:  A truth not directly revealed by God but closely connected with Divine revelation and infallibly proposed by the Magisterium.
     
    Example:  The lawfulness of communion under one kind.

    Censure attached to contradictory proposition:  Heresy against ecclesiastical faith.
     
    Effects of denial:  Mortal sin directly against faith, and, if publicly professed, automatic excommunication and forfeiture of membership of Church.
     
    Remarks:  It is a dogma that the Church's infallibility extends to truths in this sphere, so one who denies them denies implicitly a dogma or Divine faith.
     
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #71 on: February 20, 2012, 03:47:43 PM »
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  • I'm not sure that I agree with the last part of the bolded statement.  

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #72 on: February 20, 2012, 04:58:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    I'm not sure that I agree with the last part of the bolded statement.  


    I understand. Anyway, here is Monsignor Fenton discussing the subject:

    The Question of Ecclesiastical Faith Monsignor Joseph Clifford Fenton, American Ecclesiastical Review, April,1953.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #73 on: February 21, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Pepsuber
    SJB, I beg your pardon, but that doesn't answer my question. It's a list of the propositions of the Syllabus along with their sources.


    Why is it in Denzinger? The syllabus was issued on the same day at the same hour as an appendix to Quanta Cura. Here's an excerpt from a book 100 years ago:


    From the same article on the Syllabus of December 8, 1864:

    Quote
    As Mgr. Dupanloup judiciously observed, in his pamphlet on the Encyclical of the 8th December: "It is needful to recur to first principles in a time when thousands of men, and of women even, in France talk theology from morning to night without knowing much about it."
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    The 1968 Rite os Episcopal COnsecration is Valid.
    « Reply #74 on: February 23, 2012, 12:11:52 AM »
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  • Anytime you change a sacrament you render it doubtful.  There is no reason to do so unless you are following a diabolical scheme.  Why did they water down the rite of exorcism?  

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/ordinatio.htm

    http://sedevacantist.com/nrec_collins.html

    The Form in the New Rite for the Consecration of Bishops

     

    The form in the New Rite of Paul VI for the Consecration of Bishops is radically different from that which was declared essential for validity by Pius XII.  Here it is:

     

    “And now pour out upon this chosen one the power that comes from You, the excellent spirit You gave Your beloved Son Jesus Christ, which He Himself gave the Holy Apostles, who built the Church in every place as Your Sanctuary for the everlasting glory and praise of His name.” (The Oratory Catechism, p. 339)

     

    The two forms only have one thing in common, the single word “et,” which means “and.”  In the Traditional Rite, with its expression “the fullness of Your ministry” and “ornament of all glorification,” the purpose of Consecration is clearly defined since both can refer only to the bishop.  In the new rite, an unambiguous description of the effect of Episcopal Consecration is missing.  

     

    In the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration, basically every reference to the specifically Catholic understanding of the Episcopate has been deleted, just like in the New Rite of Ordination.  In fact, there is not one unambiguous statement about the intended sacramental effect of Episcopal Consecration that can be found.

     

    In the Traditional Rite of Consecration, the Consecrator instructs the bishop elect in the following terms:

     

    "A bishop judges, interprets, consecrates, ordains, offers, baptizes and confirms."

     

    This has been abolished.

     

    In the Traditional Rite, the Bishop-to-be is asked to confirm his belief in each and every article of the Creed.

     

    This has been abolished.

     

    In the Traditional Rite, the Bishop-to-be is asked if he will "anathematize every heresy that shall arise against the Holy Catholic Church."

     

    This has been abolished.  The deletion of this requirement to anathematize heresy is significant, for this is indeed one of the functions of a Bishop.

     

    In the Traditional Rite, after the consecratory prayer, the functions of a Bishop are once again specified in these words:

     

    "Give him, O Lord, the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven... Whatsoever he shall bind upon earth, let it be bound likewise in Heaven, and whatsoever he shall loose upon earth, let it likewise be loosed in Heaven. Whose sins he shall retain, let them be retained, and do Thou remit the sins of whomsoever he shall remit... Grant him, O Lord, an Episcopal chair..."

     

    This entire prayer has been abolished in the New Rite.

     

    Conclusion:  Paul VI’s New Rite of Episcopal Consecration has a radically different form than what Pius XII declared was necessary for validity.  Further, other references to the specifically Catholic understanding of the Episcopate, such as that the Bishop is empowered to ordain, were deliberately abolished.  The words of Leo XIII against Anglican Orders again prove relevant.

     

    Pope Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae, Sept. 13, 1896: “When anyone has rightly and seriously made use of the due form and the matter requisite for effecting or conferring the sacrament he is considered by that very fact to do what the Church does.  On this principle rests the doctrine that a sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed.  On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church, and of rejecting what the Church does, and what by the institution of Christ belongs to the nature of the sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the sacrament.”

     

    Thus, the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration cannot be considered valid.  All “priests” ordained by such “Bishops” consecrated in this Rite, even if the Traditional Rite of Ordination was used, such as with most of the Fraternity of St. Peter priests, Institute of Christ the King priests, etc. cannot be considered valid priests.  

     

    These facts also show that the Novus Ordo Missae (the New Mass), besides its own inherent problem of a changed form of consecration, is not valid when offered by such a “priest” or “Bishop.”

     

    Objection – But Paul VI approved these New Rites; therefore, I accept them because he was the Pope.

     

    Answer – It is not within the scope of this article to show why Paul VI was definitely not the Pope, but a Satanic infiltrator who tried to change every aspect of the Church that he possibly could.  I refer you to our video Vatican II: Council of Apostasy and the articles on our website to prove this assertion.  But it should be noted that if one accepts as valid and sure his New Sacraments just because Paul VI approved them, then one must also accept as valid and without blemish the docuмents of Vatican II, since Paul VI approved Vatican II and the New Rites by the same degree of authority.  But it is a fact that most traditional Catholics would have grave problems with Vatican II (since Vatican II contains clear heresies), so they must logically admit that Paul VI’s approval of the New Sacramental Rites could also be fatally defective.   Further, if one argues that the New Rite of Ordination or Episcopal Consecration is valid just because one of the conciliar “popes” approved it, then, in order to be consistent, one must also accept the New Catechism (promulgated by John Paul II with equal authority) as valid and sure in teaching the Faith.

     

    But if all of those other things contain denials of the Faith (as they clearly do), then the New Rites of Ordination of Paul VI also are not sure and could be invalid – as, in fact, they are.  The changes to the Rites of Ordination and Episcopal Consecration followed precisely the pattern of the Anglican Reformers: a deliberate attempt to remove the specific Catholic understanding of these things from the rites.  No sincere person can deny this.  The rites are therefore invalid on the same grounds.

     

    The truth is that Paul VI was not the Pope, but a non-Catholic Antipope, as our material proves.  Only those who obstinately blind themselves to the truth can fail to see what is going on here – an enemy of the Catholic Church in Antipope Paul VI who tried to destroy the sacraments, the Faith and the holy priesthood; who changed the rites to all 7 seven sacraments; abolished the Oath Against Modernism; abolished the Profession of Faith of the Council of Trent; abolished the Index of Forbidden Books, etc., etc., etc.  Frankly, only a foolish person would unfailingly accept his New Rites of Ordination and Consecration when we consider the man, what he believed, the dubious nature of his “election,” and how, among other things, he was publicly and repeatedly seen clothed in the vestment of a Jєωιѕн high priest and Freemason (see picture of Paul VI wearing Jєωιѕн rationale on our website).  

     

    The fruits of Paul VI’s new Vatican II “priesthood” are clear for all to see – mind-bogglingly sick and bad, because his New Rites of Ordination and Consecration are simply not valid, just like Vatican II is fraught with heresy and was an invalid robbers’ council filled with denials of the Catholic Faith.

    MHFM
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church