Author Topic: The "UnBaptized Saints" Deception (Read 3015 times)

nadieimportante · « **Reply #15 on:** October 07, 2012, 06:30:48 PM »

Quote from: SouthpawLink

In the very least, I believe that baptism of desire is possible for catechumens, as per Pope St. Pius V's Ex Omnibus Afflictionibus (nn. 31-33, 43, 70.).

http://onetruecatholicfaith.com/Roman-Catholic-Dogma.php?id=26&title=Denzinger+1001+-+1100&page=2

The fact that certain misinformed baptism of desire teachers continue to attempt to quote the Errors of Michael Du Bay, simply
shows their lack of evidence for “baptism of desire.”

Errors of Michael Du Bay, Condemned by St. Pius V in “Ex omnibus
afflictionibus,” Oct. 1, 1567: “31. Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a
‘pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned’ [1 Tim. 1:5], can be in
catechumens as well as in penitents without the remissions of sins.”437 ‐
Condemned

Errors of Michael Du Bay, Condemned by St. Pius V in “Ex omnibus
afflictionibus,” Oct. 1, 1567: “33. A catechumen lives justly and rightly and
holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through
charity, which is only received in the laver of baptism, before the remission of
sins has been obtained.”438 ‐ Condemned

Michael Du Bay’s propositions above are condemned because they assert that perfect charity can be in catechumens and penitents without the remission of sins. (Note: this says nothing one way or the other about whether or not perfect charity can be in catechumens with the remission of sins.) Du Bay’s propositions above are false because one cannot have perfect charity without the remission of sins.

Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chap. 7 on Justification, ex cathedra:
“Justification … is not merely remission of sins, but also the sanctification and
renewal of the interior man… Hence man through Jesus Christ, into whom he is
ingrafted, receives in the said justification together with the remission of sins all
these gifts infused at the same time: faith, hope and charity.”

Faith, hope, charity and the remission of sins are inseparable in a justified person. Thus, Michael Du Bay was rightly condemned for his false statement that catechumens and penitents can have perfect charity without the remission of sins. His assertion contradicts Catholic teaching. And when a pope condemns propositions like the false propositions of Michael Du Bay, he condemns the entire proposition as such. In condemning such an error, no assertion is made positively or negatively about either part of the statement, nor is any assertion made, positively or negatively, about whether catechumens can have remission of sins with perfect charity, which is not the topic of Michael
Du Bay’s statement.

If you want to believe in BOD of the catechumen, there are saints quotes that support that theory, but the condemnation of Du Bay is not one of them.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #16 on:** October 09, 2012, 09:44:20 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Show your post on Father Stepanich to all the CMRI Priests and let me know what they think.

I'll wait, but not hold my breath.

You don't seem to understand: I wrote it. If you don't like it, then YOU go,
show it around and YOU come back here and report. I'm not required to
defend my questions to anyone.

I asked questions and I gave my answers, and you don't like it.

Well, that's your doing and it's up to you to handle it. So be my guest.

Quote
Or you show them the article from Father Stepanich and ask them what they think.

Sorry, I'm not about to undertake your nefarious action of spreading lies, hate
and calumny. I can't stop you from doing it, but I can try to show you it's not a
good idea. But obviously, when I tried, you came back all the more flustered.

So there you are.

Quote
I still won't hold my breath waiting for you to do it.

All the traditional clergy SV or not are against you.

Prove it.

Show me one real priest, anywhere in the world, who is willing to go on record
saying that "baptism of desire" is a sacrament, or that it was instituted by Christ
as a sacrament.

Quote
I guess you and the Dimonds are super Gnostic elitists, and the rest of us won't reach your level until we get to Heaven. But we won't get to Heaven because the Feeneyites are the only Catholics in the world that aren't heretics.

I really don't care what the Dimonds have to say, they're sedes too, you know.

But you seem to be a bit confused. The followers of Fr. Feeney do not call anyone
who disagrees with them "heretics." You apparently got mixed up because so
many Stepanichites and their ilk hurl false epithets of "heretics" at the
"Feeneyites." It's actually a one-way street, but with all the hurling going on,
you might forget it's hurling in one direction only.

I never said I have anything to do with either group, but especially the Dimonds.

Quote
Oh well. I guess the rest of us have a lot to learn.

I'm somewhat surprised no one else is defending Father Stepanich against this strange and inexplicable attack.

So when someone shows up to defend the good name of Father Feeney, the
"greatest theologian in America," according to his peers, you just can't handle it,
but when nobody shows up to defend the acrimonious and unCatholic screed of
a Stepanichite, then it's surprising? Maybe it ought to be "expected" instead.

The language this blustering priest uses is the kind of thing that turns people
off. Who would want to be out there defending an extremist with an attitude?
Who would want to convert and become like him? Eh?

Or, have you considered that perhaps his words are not regarded as respectable, nor defensible, nor charitable? . . . Hmmmm?

They include objective errors, you know. Or, perhaps you don't know.

Maybe you should read my first response (again?), and this time, actually pay
attention. Keep an "open mind" and read what I wrote, instead of engaging in
knee-jerk reactions like a true Stepanichite.

You are against all the traditional clergy SV and not, and with the Dimonds.

Enough said.

Again, perhaps you are in a special category with the Dimonds and the rest of us will be outside looking in or maybe it is you that will be outside the Church you say we must be in, in the way you say we must be in when you are judged and perhaps the Dimonds and those of their bent will be judged with the same measuring stick that they use to measure.

I warn you as a friend.

You mock the only living theologian with a doctorate in theology and the rest of the traditional movement, and the the infallibility of the ordinary magisterium. You ought to be pretty sure of yourself before you take such a stand, publically no less where souls are in play.

I'd be careful. You can respond how you like, but it is not me you have to worry about.

Your fight is not with me but with the Catholic Church.

SouthpawLink · « **Reply #17 on:** October 09, 2012, 01:03:21 PM »

nadieimportante,
Can you cite any theologian (e.g., author of a multi-volume dogmatic theology manual, professor of a Pontifical university) who has interpreted Pope St. Pius' bull in the same manner as you have? Again:

"In persons who are penitent before the sacrament of absolution, and in catechumens before baptism, there is true justification, yet separated from the remission of sin" -- Condemned (n. 43).