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Author Topic: The "Siri Thesis" Unravels  (Read 2509 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
« on: April 16, 2011, 01:25:14 PM »
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  • http://www.insidethevatican.com/articles/siri-thesis.htm#G1302978072453

    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    - by Inside the Vatican staff


    ...In this context, we were intrigued by a small newsletter which recently arrived in our editorial offices. It was the December 2005 issue of an 8-page typewritten newsletter entitled "The War Is Now!", edited by Hutton Gibson, the father of Mel Gibson the actor and film producer.

    In this newsletter, Hutton Gibson gives a fascinating glimpse into the minds of Catholics who have grown so frustrated and confused by the shifting "trends" in the post-conciliar Church that they have latched onto various "conspiracy theories" to explain what has happened.

    The elder Gibson argues that one of the more elaborate of these conspiracy theories, called the "Siri thesis," simply isn’t true and must be discarded.

    The "Siri thesis" argues that the rather conservative cardinal archbishop of Genoa, Giuseppe Siri, was actually elected Pope in 1958, but that his election was suppressed, leading to the election of Angelo Roncalli, who became John XXIII, called the Council, rehabilitated Giovanni Battista Montini, who became Paul VI, thus ushering in the entire "post-Pius XII" era in the Church.

    The "Siri thesis" emerged among traditionalist Catholics who came to believe that "something went wrong" in the Church after the 1958 conclave, after the death of Pope Pius XII, who was therefore viewed as the "last good Pope."

    Believers in this "thesis" are therefore a species of "sede vacantist" which might be denominated "sede impeditist," that is, those who believe that the past five popes are "antipopes" and that Siri remained the "true Pope" until his death in 1989, but was "impeded" from serving as the bishop of Rome.

    The "Siri thesis" is built upon one key point: the issue of the "white smoke" that appeared for a brief time on October 26, 1958, before changing to black. The thesis is that Siri was elected on that occasion, that the smoke was white to signal his election, but that the color changed to black when the conclave annulled or overturned Siri’s election.

    A key piece of evidence for this theory has been an article written by Silvio Negro for the evening edition of Corriere della Sera (Milan, Italy) for October 27, 1958.

    But, according to the elder Gibson, the Negro article has been misunderstood by the proponents of the "Siri thesis." Negro narrates a story from the 1939 conclave, when the smoke was also a confusing mixture of white and black, until the secretary of the conclave, one Monsignor Santoro, sent a note to Vatican Radio to advise that, so matter what color the smoke seemed, it was white, and that Eugenio Pacelli had been elected Pope Pius XII.

    In the elder Gibson’s December newsletter, however, this "Siri thesis" is denounced as false, built on shoddy scholarship and inadequate fact checking.

    The proponents of the "Siri thesis," perhaps due to limited familiarity with the Italian language, had misunderstood Negro’s article, and concluded that he was writing about the 1958 conclave. Thus, for proponents of the "Siri thesis," Monsignor Santoro sent out a note from the 1958 conclave to say that, no matter what the color of the smoke, a Pope had been elected. As the elder Gibson notes in his December newsletter, however, there was one problem: Santoro was not the secretary of the 1958 conclave at all, but of the 1939 conclave. The entire "Siri thesis" was based on a simple misreading of an Italian newspaper article.

    This "Siri thesis" is not the only one being circulated in traditionalist circles to explain the modern woes of the Church, but it has come to be believed by hundreds, perhaps thousands of people around the world, Inside the Vatican has been told by sources in the traditionalist movement.

    The elder Gibson and some of his associates have confirmed to Inside the Vatican that the "Siri thesis" the elder Gibson "debunks" in his December 2005 newsletter still has adherents in virtually every country on earth.

    We find this announcement by the elder Gibson interesting because it reveals two important things: (1) how people who are perplexed by change (in this case, some traditional Catholics), may grasp at untenable theories in order to explain disturbing realities; and yet (2) how an openness to sifting theories to ascertain their conformity to historical truth can persist even in these same traditionalist Catholic circles.

    As one associate of the elder Gibson expressed it to us: "If the truth about our current confusion is ever to be clarified and understood, the necessary first step must be for those suspicious of Rome and of recent pontiffs to commit themselves to seeking the truth even if it goes against deeply-held positions arrived at without all the evidence in hand."

    Thus, the "Siri thesis" has been dismantled by "insiders," members of that very traditional Catholic milieu which had been favorable to the idea in principle.

    This reveals that, despite their understandable confusion about the situation of the Church in the early 21st century and their continuing dissatisfaction with the Church’s leadership in Rome, these traditional Catholics have considerable good will, that is, they are committed to seeking the truth, not "conspiracy theories" without any foundation in fact.

    As one traditional Catholic involved in this controversy wrote in January to Inside the Vatican: "Love of the truth as evidenced by Mr. Hutton Gibson and others is based upon advice given by St. Anselm to his disciple: ‘You must not so cling to what we have said, as to abide by it obstinately, when others with more weighty arguments succeed in overthrowing ours and establishing opinions against them,’ and further, ‘If there is anything that calls for correction I do not refuse the correction.’"

    If this is the perspective of the most radical of the Catholic traditionalists, there seems room for guarded optimism about the possibility of coming to some sort of meeting of the minds over the questions which most trouble Catholic traditionalists, involving the changes in the Church’s liturgy and in her rites of ordination of priests and consecration of bishops. In this new pontificate, the time may have come for traditional Catholics and "conciliar Rome" to "reason together" to find a way forward in a complex and confusing world.





    Offline MyrnaM

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #1 on: April 16, 2011, 01:33:01 PM »
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  • Unravel the evidence that John XXIII was a Rosicrucian, that is much more telling.
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Raoul76

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #2 on: April 16, 2011, 01:41:24 PM »
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  • That's it, you're going on ignore Stevus.  Not because I'm a Siri-thesist but because now you're calling Catholics αnтι-ѕємιтєs and conspiracy theorists.  I've given you enough chances.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #3 on: April 16, 2011, 01:50:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    That's it, you're going on ignore Stevus.  Not because I'm a Siri-thesist but because now you're calling Catholics αnтι-ѕємιтєs and conspiracy theorists.  I've given you enough chances.


    Complete crap. I'm not calling "Catholics" αnтι-ѕємιтєs or conspiracy theorists. In fact what you've just written is libelous. Either you are completely dense and have no ability to read or else you're finding a weak pretext to no longer have to grapple with the substance of my posts.

    Ignore me if you will, but don't base it on such a ridiculous, silly, and unfounded assertion.

    For the record, I think hitting the ignore button is typically an act of cowardice which is why I have not ignored anyone since I've been here.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #4 on: April 16, 2011, 02:32:04 PM »
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  • For once I agree with you, I have no one on ignore either, although in the past I did put a few choosen ones on ignore, but found that I could still read them, when you reply and scroll down to see the last replies, so I figured what is the benefit of that feature anyway,
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Emerentiana

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #5 on: April 16, 2011, 02:44:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote from: Raoul76
    That's it, you're going on ignore Stevus.  Not because I'm a Siri-thesist but because now you're calling Catholics αnтι-ѕємιтєs and conspiracy theorists.  I've given you enough chances.


    Complete crap. I'm not calling "Catholics" αnтι-ѕємιтєs or conspiracy theorists. In fact what you've just written is libelous. Either you are completely dense and have no ability to read or else you're finding a weak pretext to no longer have to grapple with the substance of my posts.

    Ignore me if you will, but don't base it on such a ridiculous, silly, and unfounded assertion.

    For the record, I think hitting the ignore button is typically an act of cowardice which is why I have not ignored anyone since I've been here.


    Quote
    For the record, I think hitting the ignore button is typically an act of cowardice which is why I have not ignored anyone since I've been here.


    Stevus, everyone on this forum should put you on ignore!  I knew it wouldnt be very long until you found something to discredit Thursday's docuмentary!
    Your a a pain where a pill cant reach!
     
    :argue:

    Offline Raoul76

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 02:44:20 PM »
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  • It is easy enough to ignore posts when you reply.

    I only have two people on ignore, roscoe and Stevus.  The site dramatically improved when I couldn't see the distracting and ridiculous posts of roscoe -- whose behavior in the thread about my mother was appalling by the way -- and it will improve still more without the fruitless discussions with StevusMagnus, whose position is so distant from the truth that I don't feel I can be of any service to him.

    That's because anyone who says there is no ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic conspiracy is the real  :tinfoil:  It may even be a heresy.  The Popes have been warning against Masons for the last three hundred years.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2011, 03:04:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    That's because anyone who says there is no ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic conspiracy is the real  :tinfoil:  It may even be a heresy.  The Popes have been warning against Masons for the last three hundred years.


    Well, it has to do with matters of history.  You don't have to state heresies to be a traitor.  You don't have to deny the truths of Faith to sell out those who fight the enemies of the Faith.



    Offline Raoul76

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #8 on: April 16, 2011, 04:07:07 PM »
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  • Tele, I think it could be denying a truth of the faith to deny the existence of a Masonic conspiracy.  If this wasn't part of the faith, why were / are Masons automatically excommunicated?  You don't excommunicate someone for a merely political view.  

    True, it's one thing to be a Mason, and another to deny they exist.  But how do you deal with someone who denies something like that?  That the Masons exist and are conspiring against the Church has been said over and over by Popes.  It would be pretty close to Pharisaism to say this had no weight, or wasn't something Catholics were expected to believe.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #9 on: April 16, 2011, 04:12:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Tele, I think it could be denying a truth of the faith to deny the existence of a Masonic conspiracy.  If this wasn't part of the faith, why were / are Masons automatically excommunicated?  You don't excommunicate someone for a merely political view.  


    Masons are automatically excommunicated because joining the organization means accepting things that are contrary to the Faith.  But a person's view of the role of the historical role of the masons wouldn't necessarily pertain to Faith.  Just as an authentic private revelation would not necessarily pertain to the Faith, but someone who resisted hearing it could be acting to harm the Church.

    Quote
    True, it's one thing to be a Mason, and another to deny they exist.  But how do you deal with someone who denies something like that?  That the Masons exist and are conspiring against the Church has been said over and over by Popes.  It would be pretty close to Pharisaism to say this had no weight, or wasn't something Catholics were expected to believe.


    Yes, and that's why it's very cultish for society apologists to turn around and start labeling Catholics as "conspiracy theoriests" and "antisemites" - because those "kooks" are just holding to the position the SSPX taught before.  It's cultish to change teachings and pretend you're not doing it.  It's cultish to try to suppress the publication of Archbishop Lefebvre's sermons.

    Offline Raoul76

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #10 on: April 16, 2011, 04:31:53 PM »
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  • I'm not so worried about denying Abp. Lefebvre, I'm worried about denying what Popes have taught for three centuries.  There is this thing called the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

    I did, as you can see, make the distinction between joining the Masons and denying their existence.  But that they exist and are working against the Church, when this has been established in canon law and by Popes, is a matter of history and common sense.  

    I guess you're right that it the existence of Masons is not a matter of the faith, since all that we MUST believe was revealed with the Apostles.  But to deny it would be... I don't even know what to call it.  It's like denying that frozen water becomes ice, and saying it's gelatin.  It's just gibberish.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #11 on: April 16, 2011, 04:36:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    It is easy enough to ignore posts when you reply.

    I only have two people on ignore, roscoe and Stevus.  The site dramatically improved when I couldn't see the distracting and ridiculous posts of roscoe -- whose behavior in the thread about my mother was appalling by the way -- and it will improve still more without the fruitless discussions with StevusMagnus, whose position is so distant from the truth that I don't feel I can be of any service to him.

    That's because anyone who says there is no ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic conspiracy is the real  :tinfoil:  It may even be a heresy.  The Popes have been warning against Masons for the last three hundred years.


    Roscoe hasn't even been on here in a while. I know this sounds un-charitable, but good riddance to him, I say. All he ever did was promote smoking pot. I also have roscoe on ignore. He was one of those people who was obssessed with the Siri Thesis.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Thursday

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #12 on: April 16, 2011, 05:24:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    http://www.insidethevatican.com/articles/siri-thesis.htm#G1302978072453

    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    - by Inside the Vatican staff


    ...In this context, we were intrigued by a small newsletter which recently arrived in our editorial offices....



    A rebuttal to this article can be founbd here.
    http://www.eclipseofthechurch.com/RebuttalArticleIII.htm

    Offline Caminus

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #13 on: April 16, 2011, 05:41:40 PM »
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  • Thursay, how do you respond to timeframe problem noted in the other thread?

    Offline Thursday

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    The "Siri Thesis" Unravels
    « Reply #14 on: April 16, 2011, 05:50:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    Thursay, how do you respond to timeframe problem noted in the other thread?

     I'll post there