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Author Topic: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy  (Read 3762 times)

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Offline Thomas More

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Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
« on: February 28, 2013, 12:51:42 PM »
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    • Over the years I have heard people express doubts about the validity of this line of clergy. Wondering if anyone knows what the reasons are?
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    Offline Olive

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    Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 01:59:23 PM »
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    • I have heard the same thing.  There's too much doubt surrounding them [for me] to consider attending their chapels.
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    Offline Thomas More

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    Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 04:23:24 PM »
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    • Here is what I've gathered:

    •  Abp. Thuc both ordained and consecrated Clemente Dominguez Gomez in 1976
    •  Clemente Dominguez Gomez both conditionally ordained Maurice Terrasson and consecrated him in 1976. I've seen certificates for both. Note this conditional ordination and consecration took place before Clemente Dominguez Gomez's car accident a few months later, where, after recovering, he went off the deep end and declared himself pope etc.
    •  Timothy Henneberry was ordained by Bp. Carmona-Rivera in 1990
    •  Fr. Henneberry consecrated by Bp. Terrasson in 1994
    •  Bp. Henneberry ordained Neal Webster (year uncertain)
    •  Bp. Slupski consecrated Fr. Webster (year uncertain)

    So the ordinations and consecrations themselves look legitimate to me at first glance without looking deeper into it. Though the proper knowledge/training for each is a separate issue that would need to be looked into. Curious if anyone has other thoughts.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #3 on: June 25, 2020, 03:25:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Thomas More on February 28, 2013, 04:23:24 PM
    Here is what I've gathered:

    •  Abp. Thuc both ordained and consecrated Clemente Dominguez Gomez in 1976
    •  Clemente Dominguez Gomez both conditionally ordained Maurice Terrasson and consecrated him in 1976. I've seen certificates for both. Note this conditional ordination and consecration took place before Clemente Dominguez Gomez's car accident a few months later, where, after recovering, he went off the deep end and declared himself pope etc.
    •  Timothy Henneberry was ordained by Bp. Carmona-Rivera in 1990
    •  Fr. Henneberry consecrated by Bp. Terrasson in 1994
    •  Bp. Henneberry ordained Neal Webster (year uncertain)
    •  Bp. Slupski consecrated Fr. Webster (year uncertain)

    So the ordinations and consecrations themselves look legitimate to me at first glance without looking deeper into it. Though the proper knowledge/training for each is a separate issue that would need to be looked into. Curious if anyone has other thoughts.
    Do you have any photos of that certificate?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 04:28:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Thomas More on February 28, 2013, 04:23:24 PM
    Here is what I've gathered:

    •  Abp. Thuc both ordained and consecrated Clemente Dominguez Gomez in 1976
    •  Clemente Dominguez Gomez both conditionally ordained Maurice Terrasson and consecrated him in 1976. I've seen certificates for both. Note this conditional ordination and consecration took place before Clemente Dominguez Gomez's car accident a few months later, where, after recovering, he went off the deep end and declared himself pope etc.
    •  Timothy Henneberry was ordained by Bp. Carmona-Rivera in 1990
    •  Fr. Henneberry consecrated by Bp. Terrasson in 1994
    •  Bp. Henneberry ordained Neal Webster (year uncertain)
    •  Bp. Slupski consecrated Fr. Webster (year uncertain)

    So the ordinations and consecrations themselves look legitimate to me at first glance without looking deeper into it. Though the proper knowledge/training for each is a separate issue that would need to be looked into. Curious if anyone has other thoughts.

    Thanks.  I thought I saw something where there's a Duarte Costa issue somewhere in this line.  I'd be interested in finding out whether Clemente had sufficient training in Latin to be able to validly confect an an ordination and consecration just a month or two after himself being summarily ordained/consecrated.  Boyle has no record of the conditional ordination of Terrasson ... who had originally been ordained by some Gallican Old Catholic group.

    http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Thuc_Consecrations.html
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #5 on: June 25, 2020, 04:44:55 PM »
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    • I would hope that Bishop Slupski would have done some due diligence before consecrating Webster.  Maybe he conditionally ordained Webster before consecration?  But just because it was Domingo-Gomez doesn't necessarily mean it was invalid.  Domingo-Gomez was a traditional Catholic in 1976 and I don't think anyone is claiming that his ordination and consecration were invalid.  He became a heretic not too long after that but he was Catholic when he consecrated Terrason.  But nevertheless, it is pretty sketchy.  I don't know how we can have much confidence in that line.  But I would have confidence if Slupski conditionally ordained Webster before consecration.  I don't think anyone but the SSPV is questioning the validity of Slupski.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #6 on: June 25, 2020, 04:54:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on June 25, 2020, 04:44:55 PM
    I would hope that Bishop Slupski would have done some due diligence before consecrating Webster.  Maybe he conditionally ordained Webster before consecration?  But just because it was Domingo-Gomez doesn't necessarily mean it was invalid.  Domingo-Gomez was a traditional Catholic in 1976 and I don't think anyone is claiming that his ordination and consecration were invalid.  He became a heretic not too long after that but he was Catholic when he consecrated Terrason.  But nevertheless, it is pretty sketchy.  I don't know how we can have much confidence in that line.  But I would have confidence if Slupski conditionally ordained Webster before consecration.  I don't think anyone but the SSPV is questioning the validity of Slupski.
    I have seen non SSPV people questioning Slupski just because they don't like him or the people he ordained or consecrated. I saw this one site claim that the consecration done by Slupski were invalid due to him using rancid holy oils even though holy oils have nothing to do with the validity of holy orders. I also had a guy on discord tell me that Cekada or Dolan accused him of using an invalid rite. Colada and Dolan are probably just mad at Slupski for being the co-conservator of +Ramolla and for consecration Webster. I could try calling Webster and asking about this. I really hope he is a valid bishop since he is the only one I know of who denies BOD and doesn't have Duarte Costa or Old Catholic orders (if Terrason was conditionally ordained)
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #7 on: June 25, 2020, 05:14:12 PM »
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    • I wouldn't put too much stock in Discord rumors.  You might want to shoot an email to Fr Cekada or Bishop Dolan about that.  I doubt they are calling into question Slupski's validity.  But they certainly would have a problem with Bishop Webster because of the BOD issue.  But are you sure Bishop Webster denies BOD?  I think the Dimonds have an interview with him on their site and there is a transcript of another exchange they had with him in which they point out that he was on good terms with Bishop Slupski who was an ardent defender of BOD.  And I think the Dimonds also got Webster to admit that his position is the same as Fr Feeney.  But Fr Feeney didn't deny BOD.  In his book he explicitly affirms that BOD justifies those who receive it.  What he denied was that anyone could be saved who wasn't first baptized with water.  That's not the same thing as denial of BOD.  The Dimonds deny BOD outright.  They don't think it exists and they think anyone who believes that it does exist is a heretic.  I mean, doesn't that position make Fr Feeney a heretic too?  I think they give St Thomas and St Alphonsus a pass since they came before Vatican I.  But Fr Feeney lived during the 20th century so I don't know how he would escape the accusation of heresy by the Dimonds.  That issue is the third rail of Catholicism.  Everyone has an opinion and if you don't agree with them, you are a heretic.  Sad.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #8 on: June 25, 2020, 05:23:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on June 25, 2020, 05:14:12 PM
    I wouldn't put too much stock in Discord rumors.  You might want to shoot an email to Fr Cekada or Bishop Dolan about that.  I doubt they are calling into question Slupski's validity.  But they certainly would have a problem with Bishop Webster because of the BOD issue.  But are you sure Bishop Webster denies BOD?  I think the Dimonds have an interview with him on their site and there is a transcript of another exchange they had with him in which they point out that he was on good terms with Bishop Slupski who was an ardent defender of BOD.  And I think the Dimonds also got Webster to admit that his position is the same as Fr Feeney.  But Fr Feeney didn't deny BOD.  In his book he explicitly affirms that BOD justifies those who receive it.  What he denied was that anyone could be saved who wasn't first baptized with water.  That's not the same thing as denial of BOD.  The Dimonds deny BOD outright.  They don't think it exists and they think anyone who believes that it does exist is a heretic.  I mean, doesn't that position make Fr Feeney a heretic too?  I think they give St Thomas and St Alphonsus a pass since they came before Vatican I.  But Fr Feeney lived during the 20th century so I don't know how he would escape the accusation of heresy by the Dimonds.  That issue is the third rail of Catholicism.  Everyone has an opinion and if you don't agree with them, you are a heretic.  Sad.
    Webster does not believe in BOD but he believes that someone can be in a state of justification before baptism. I have spoken to him on the phone 3 times now. He seems to be a pretty nice guy. When I told him about how my dad is not Catholic he offered to send me a released Brown scapular to give to him. He also sent a dude I know from Germany a Fr. Greenery CD and some printouts of the Council of Trent with underlines to prove that someone can be in a state of justification before baptism. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #9 on: June 25, 2020, 07:40:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on June 25, 2020, 04:44:55 PM
    I would hope that Bishop Slupski would have done some due diligence before consecrating Webster.  Maybe he conditionally ordained Webster before consecration?  But just because it was Domingo-Gomez doesn't necessarily mean it was invalid.  Domingo-Gomez was a traditional Catholic in 1976 and I don't think anyone is claiming that his ordination and consecration were invalid.  He became a heretic not too long after that but he was Catholic when he consecrated Terrason.  But nevertheless, it is pretty sketchy.  I don't know how we can have much confidence in that line.  But I would have confidence if Slupski conditionally ordained Webster before consecration.  I don't think anyone but the SSPV is questioning the validity of Slupski.

    Yes, the presumption wold be that Dominguez was in fact Catholic at the time.  There's the question of whether or not he might have been insane, although some people believe that he was under diabolical influence somehow.  I've heard report from people whom I trust who claim that he did in fact levitate while offering Mass.

    Now, my biggest concern with him is that he was a layman, an insurance salesman, until just a month or two before the ordination/consecration of Terrasson.  Was he sufficiently trained to be able to validly confer the Sacraments?  One of the criteria for determining validity is that a properly-trained cleric is presumed to have the knowledge to perform the Sacraments.  I'm not sure that presumption could be made about Dominguez.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #10 on: June 25, 2020, 07:47:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on June 25, 2020, 05:14:12 PM
    I wouldn't put too much stock in Discord rumors.  You might want to shoot an email to Fr Cekada or Bishop Dolan about that.  I doubt they are calling into question Slupski's validity.  But they certainly would have a problem with Bishop Webster because of the BOD issue.  But are you sure Bishop Webster denies BOD?  I think the Dimonds have an interview with him on their site and there is a transcript of another exchange they had with him in which they point out that he was on good terms with Bishop Slupski who was an ardent defender of BOD.  And I think the Dimonds also got Webster to admit that his position is the same as Fr Feeney.  But Fr Feeney didn't deny BOD.  In his book he explicitly affirms that BOD justifies those who receive it.  What he denied was that anyone could be saved who wasn't first baptized with water.  That's not the same thing as denial of BOD.  The Dimonds deny BOD outright.  They don't think it exists and they think anyone who believes that it does exist is a heretic.  I mean, doesn't that position make Fr Feeney a heretic too?  I think they give St Thomas and St Alphonsus a pass since they came before Vatican I.  But Fr Feeney lived during the 20th century so I don't know how he would escape the accusation of heresy by the Dimonds.  That issue is the third rail of Catholicism.  Everyone has an opinion and if you don't agree with them, you are a heretic.  Sad.

    I believe the Dimonds denounced +Webster as a heretic for his position on BoD.  I got to know him pretty well when he and I were both at Regina Caeli House in Kansas City.  He invited me alone to be present as his reception of the Minor Orders from Bishop Hesson in the Philly area.  I found myself a bit uneasy because Bishop Hesson really hurried through them to the point that I found the Latin to be borderline incomprehensible, so I was hoping that he wouldn't be ordained by +Hesson.  Neal (now Bishop Webster) and I would join a group of people who protested near abortion clinics in the KC area.

    In any case, I had the distinct sense that he held to a relatively mild and undogmatic Feeneyism, very likely identical to that of Father Feeney.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #11 on: June 25, 2020, 11:07:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 25, 2020, 07:40:58 PM
    Yes, the presumption wold be that Dominguez was in fact Catholic at the time.  There's the question of whether or not he might have been insane, although some people believe that he was under diabolical influence somehow.  I've heard report from people whom I trust who claim that he did in fact levitate while offering Mass.

    Now, my biggest concern with him is that he was a layman, an insurance salesman, until just a month or two before the ordination/consecration of Terrasson.  Was he sufficiently trained to be able to validly confer the Sacraments?  One of the criteria for determining validity is that a properly-trained cleric is presumed to have the knowledge to perform the Sacraments.  I'm not sure that presumption could be made about Dominguez.
    I doubt the pronunciation of latin would invalidate it considering that I as a layman could read some of it and God would know what I am trying to say in Latin. Do you know for sure that Terrason was conditionally ordained by Clemente? I have talked to Webster on the phone 4 times now. I have had two 5 minute conversations and two 20 minute conversations with him. He told me that Terrasson was conditionally ordained by Clemente and I found this schismatic trad anglican who was ordained by Terasson who said that Clemente pretty much re-ordained everyone he consecrated. Did he ever talk to you about how he was cured at Lourdes? I just learned about this today. I would not be surprised if Clemente was getting demonic apparitions given that he was a notorius ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is often either caused by mortal sin, idolatry, or causes more mortal sin and idolatry. I am pretty sure Clemente was able to confer sacraments given that there were other people there who could've helped him. 2 months is enough time to learn how to carry out a rite of ordination.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #12 on: June 26, 2020, 08:28:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 25, 2020, 11:07:39 PM
    I doubt the pronunciation of latin would invalidate it considering ...

    Pronunciation, no, butchering of it, yes.  If you don't know Latin it would easy to butcher the form to the point of rendering it invalid.  Yes, Neal (now Bishop Webster) told me all about his Lourdes experience.  I think that the conditional ordination of Terrasson is a weak link.  Thomas More posted that there's a docuмent to establish the conditional organization, but there's no mention of it on Boyle's site.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #13 on: June 26, 2020, 03:39:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 26, 2020, 08:28:17 AM
    Pronunciation, no, butchering of it, yes.  If you don't know Latin it would easy to butcher the form to the point of rendering it invalid.  Yes, Neal (now Bishop Webster) told me all about his Lourdes experience.  I think that the conditional ordination of Terrasson is a weak link.  Thomas More posted that there's a docuмent to establish the conditional organization, but there's no mention of it on Boyle's site.
    Was Webster promoting the rosary like he does now before Lourdes or did he promote it more intensely after? Do you think this pronunciation of latin would render the sacrament invalid? 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Terrasson-Henneberry-Webster line of clergy
    « Reply #14 on: June 26, 2020, 06:49:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 26, 2020, 03:39:25 PM
    Was Webster promoting the rosary like he does now before Lourdes or did he promote it more intensely after? Do you think this pronunciation of latin would render the sacrament invalid?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1G4OnAvtR4

    Wow is that bad.  This recording didn't have the essential form but at other times he slurred words so badly that it sounded like they were actually skipped.  This is incredibly sloppy, lazy, and and irreverent and this man had no business being a Bishop and Cardinal (for this reason alone).

    If the pronounciation is so bad that the words are completely unrecognizable or become some other word with a different meaning in the essential form, it would be invalid.

    Look at the first sentence.  Quam oblationem ... omnibus quaesumus and totally skips the words "tu, Deus, in".  If he were to pull that same stunt at the words of consecration, the Mass would not be valid.  As for the rest of it, he got every word even it he was slurring his words like a drunk, racing through them, showing no reverence or inflection.
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